[Monster Rules] An Outside Playtest

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I'll post the results of yesterday's playtest latter on today.  For now, here is the new version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Strength:  3
Agility:  0, 0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24
(84)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

Cosmic Presence
(60)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+4
((32 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 10 + 60 + 20)/8 = 25)

20 (4d10+1d4+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Ultimate
((32+10+30)/2=36)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(32+15+15+60=138)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(400)

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

I'm looking forward to it.

The game we played was interesting. The evil Ice Age created a temporal anomaly that was allowing dinosaur to enter our reality. The heroes needed to close it off. The teams were Ice Age, a T-Rex and a bunch of mini-dinos versus Warhammer (hired gun), Comrade Super, some Spatznauts, and Von Stroph (a Vampiric Hero).

I wanted to test the alternate Fatality Roll, which seemed to work quite well. The more powerful heroes had a default "Life" of 2-3, most higher making use of Vitality to boost their scores. For the minions, originally I used 1 or 6 on a D6 for elimination which proved to be too hard to score. We changed it to 1-3 on a D6 for elimination and that worked much better.

As the game proceeded, a wave of mini-dinos assaulted Comrade Super who used his minions to great support effect and mowed through them--but not before the dinos ate about half of the Spatznauts.

Ice Age had also blasted Comrade Super and began building up the damage.

The T-Rex and Warhammer went at it also, blasting away at each other. The damage was always slow going--a point a round--until you choose a knockdown or glitch, which then halved their total. Halfing the total versus not allowing powers to stack was a lot smoother and easier to calculate.

In the end, Warhammer made a few good Fatality Rolls to remain alive. Then in one Turn he knocked the T-Rex down and did 8 total points of damage with his next 2 Actions which killed the king of dinosaurs.

However, a nearby baby-dino scored a lucky 1 point hit that caused Warhammer to make a Fatality Roll which he failed--and he went down.

I think the single PL12 power for a Minion made them far-more effective, but not too powerful.

Von Stroph turned invisibile and circled around the back of Ice Age and shoved her off a cliff. He then went to the anomally and started to try and shut it down (TN 4 x2).

Ice Age tried to take out Von Stroph, who simply turned invisible to finish his work on the anomally. Ice Age did could not find him or hit him with random attacks.

In all, it was a fun game that moved far more quickly and was easier to explain. I think some of your suggestions and the changes made are great improvements.

MrAtomek

[mratomek]

On SHE...

Remember, regardless of how many drawbacks used, a power can only be reduced to a minimum of 1/2 its total value. So She, as you have her, is actually a 907 point character in game:


She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  907 Points

Strength:  3
Agility:  0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24 (Cosmic)
(162)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24 (Cosmic)
Spirit:  Good
(108)

Eternal
(50)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+4

((48 + 10 + 48 + 5 + 10 + 60 + 20)/Half = 100)

20 (4d10+1d4+4) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +4, Ultimate
((40+20+30)/Half=45)

24 (4d10+1d8+4) Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm), Blink, Enhanced +4, Cosmic
(48+15+20+60=143)

Blind Fighting
(10)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(605)

[Bill Masek]

My Second Playtest:

I had a nice campaign set up.  My opponent would have had 3000 points to my 1000.  It would have began with a dream sequence and worked its way to a massive demonic summoning where my opponent would have to either defeat all my characters before the demon was summoned, or fight it with the survivors of both his and my characters when its summoning was completed.

However, my opponent did not make a team.  I told him I would email him the new rules for character creation and, well, they were never posted.  I offered to let him use some of the pieces I had put together.

There were some rule changes put in that day and I only had time to convert 3 of my characters over to the newest set.  They were:  The Butcher at 300 points, and a pair of martial artists at 200 each.  The martial artists used Counter and Block as their defensive powers, allowing them more focus on their attacks.  The Butcher was a standard brick, strong, invincible and wielding a big cleaver.

Combat went something like this:  His first martial artists leaped onto the top of a building.  The Butcher then leaped after, and started tearing into him.  The other martial artist followed and attacked The Butcher.  We spent a while attacking one and other, then his first martial artist died.  Then his second martial artist died.  Then the game was over.

I can say that 3 melee combatants duking it out makes for a very boring game.  We sat there attacking back and forth until one side died.  No strategy was necessary; there were no clever tactics possible.

I will say that I liked how Counter worked.  The advantage of a retaliation strike was nicely balanced by the extra damage received.  However, it is not anywhere near as powerful as a defensive power with Hardened.  When I scored 1 higher then my opponent with The Butcher I automatically scored 3 damage (all characters had Deadly) but my opponents would only do 1 even with deadly attacks.  Even though it was less powerful, this was offset by the fact that it only cost 5, instead of the 74 a good defensive power with hardened would have cost.

Best,
        Bill

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

On defects...

You said....

Remember, regardless of how many drawbacks used, a power can only be reduced to a minimum of 1/2 its total value

Earlier you said...

The maximum you can reduce an individual power listing's cost is by half, regardless of how many drawbacks you purchase. That might be too crappy of a rule.

Then I said...

I do agree, however, that the first is a fairly crappy solution.  But I am not really sure that it is even a problem.  Just something to keep your eye on during play testing.

Then you sent me rules that say...

Some special abilities do not allow you to stack them with other abilities when a character makes an action roll. A special
ability's description explains exactly when it can stack with other special abilities and when it can't.

And there is nothing in any of the defects saying that they do not stack.

Now, I agree that defect stacking can get silly.  Very silly.  I will give you an example of just how silly they can get.


Dusk Witch

Hero
Cost: 150

Strength:  2
Agility:  12
Intelligence:  4
Perception:  12
Resolve:  4
Presence:  0
(68)

Action:  5
Size:  1
Move:  12
Spirit:  Evil

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Mimic + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Multi-mimic, Power thief, Mass x 12, Enhanced+2, Cosmic, Quick Draw, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Taunt
((24+25+50+36+10+60+10+5+50+5+5)/32= 9)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Hellfire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Cosmic, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Knock Black, Knock Down, Piercing, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((60+50+36+10+60+5+50+5+5+5+15+5+5)/32)=10)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Death + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+50+36+10+5+5)/32=5)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Fire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+36+10+5+5)/32=3)

12 (2d10+1d4) Ice + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12
((24+36)/32=2)

12 (2d10+1d4) Invisibility + Pc Self, Supernatural
(24)

12 Flight + Ag Self, Supernatural
(24)

Blind Fight
(10)

Disabled:  Presence

With unlimited ability stacking the Dusk Witch is a 150 pt Hero who can could slaughter Champions en-mass with a good first roll.  First, she steals all of their defensive powers and their best offensive power.  Then their roll is halved.  The next four attacks will eradicate the group.  True, She Who is Heaven and Bliss might be able to the Dusk Witch her 1 on 1, but not 4 of Dusk Witches.

However, limiting heroes to 1 defect per power is equally silly.  Are you saying that there are no short-range weapons?  All mana draining powers are totally reliable?  There are no spells which leave you drained?  This rule is not degenerate, but it is silly and reduces the options players have.

Perhaps a better fix would be to have the cost reduction increase linearly instead of exponentially.  So 1 defects would reduce the cost by 1/2, 2 defects would reduce it by 1/3, 3 would reduce it by 1/4, etc.  That way power discounts won't spiral out of control, but there are still reasons to have them.  (This was recommended by a friend of mine, who really likes DnD 3E.  It happens to be how they deal with halving halves.)

I should also mention that Power Drain is far to good of a defect.  You should always link it to an ability you have at 0.  Instead, force the players who purchase Power Drain to link it to the stat that the associated power is linked to.

Best,
        Bill

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

Are you saying that Cosmic increases the PL of a stat/ability by 8, or that it increases the Max PL of the stat or ability by 8?  If Cosmic increases the PL by 8, then, even with her defects only halving her cost, the version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss only costs 475 (before 50% increase).

It would not make sense for Cosmic to increase the Max PL by a single stat or ability by a specific amount.  Just increase the cost of Cosmic and make it a solid increase.  You will never have a situation where someone buys cosmic, but only buys 4 extra PL with it.  If you want it to cost 78 per Cosmic instead of 60 that's fine (although a bit awkward) but then make Cosmic actually cost 78.

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  24 (Cosmic)
Spirit:  Good
(108)

Where does this come from?  I thought that the movement of a character was 4" or the movement of their travel power, which ever was higher.  So I put her travel power down for her movement.

Now if you can simply purchase movement for 1pt per 1" then I would write 4" (24" w/ DT) and consider making characters with their movement purchased this way instead of through travel powers.  However, I didn't see this anywhere in the rules.

Best,
        Bill

[Bill Masek]

In the above post, 78 was supposed to be 76.

[mratomek]

Bill, I appreciate your efforts and your help. The changes I am attempting to implement since talking to you have completely destabilized the rules--however, I almost have everything worked back out, and I do think the game has improved dramatically.

On drawbacks/defects, until I can come up with a better solution, lets leave it to 1 Drawback per power. It is simply too much of an abuse to buy a 200 point power for 25 points.

About Move, think of it as a power that all characters have. It is a basic movement ability. It allows a character to move 1" per PL per Action used. If you purchase another movement power, such as Super Speed, Flight or Dimensional Travel, you don't add that PL to your Move PL. Furthermore, you are limited to the same maximums as wiht all PL

Dusk Witch

Hero
Cost: 150

Strength:  2
Agility:  12
Intelligence:  4
Perception:  12
Resolve:  4
Presence:  0
(68)

Action:  3 (4)
Size:  1
Move:  12
Spirit:  Evil

(Move costs 2 pts per PL, Move 12 would cost 24 pts)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Mimic + Pc Ranged, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Multi-mimic, Power thief, Mass x 12, Enhanced+2, Cosmic, Quick Draw, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Taunt
((24+25+50+36+10+60+10+5+50+5+5)/32= 9)

20 (2d10+1d12+2) Hellfire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Cosmic, Run and Shoot, Mastery, Point Blank, Knock Black, Knock Down, Piercing, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((60+50+36+10+60+5+50+5+5+5+15+5+5)/32)=10)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Death + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Deadly, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+50+36+10+5+5)/32=5)

12 (2d10+1d4+2) Fire + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12, Enhanced +2, Rapid Fire, Taunt
((24+36+10+5+5)/32=3)

12 (2d10+1d4) Ice + Pc Target, Supernatural:  Equipment, Single Shot, Power Down, Presence Drain, Short Range, Mass x 12
((24+36)/32=2)

12 (2d10+1d4) Invisibility + Pc Self, Supernatural
(24)

12 Flight + Ag Self, Supernatural
(24)

Blind Fight
(10)

Disabled:  Presence

With unlimited ability stacking the Dusk Witch is a 150 pt Hero who can could slaughter Champions en-mass with a good first roll.  First, she steals all of their defensive powers and their best offensive power.  Then their roll is halved.  The next four attacks will eradicate the group.  True, She Who is Heaven and Bliss might be able to the Dusk Witch her 1 on 1, but not 4 of Dusk Witches.

Although it is possible to create Heroes that can take out a champion, try recreating the Dust Witch using only a single Drawback per power.

However, limiting heroes to 1 defect per power is equally silly.  Are you saying that there are no short-range weapons?  All mana draining powers are totally reliable?  There are no spells which leave you drained?  This rule is not degenerate, but it is silly and reduces the options players have.

I agree, neither allowing a single Drawback or allowing a player to stack drawbacks are a good solution. But lets stick with a single drawback for now.

Perhaps a better fix would be to have the cost reduction increase linearly instead of exponentially.  So 1 defects would reduce the cost by 1/2, 2 defects would reduce it by 1/3, 3 would reduce it by 1/4, etc.  That way power discounts won't spiral out of control, but there are still reasons to have them.  (This was recommended by a friend of mine, who really likes DnD 3E.  It happens to be how they deal with halving halves.)

That's not a bad idea. Let me do some math on that solution.

I should also mention that Power Drain is far to good of a defect.  You should always link it to an ability you have at 0.  Instead, force the players who purchase Power Drain to link it to the stat that the associated power is linked to.

Good catch.

[mratomek]

Are you saying that Cosmic increases the PL of a stat/ability by 8, or that it increases the Max PL of the stat or ability by 8?  If Cosmic increases the PL by 8, then, even with her defects only halving her cost, the version of She Who is Heaven and Bliss only costs 475 (before 50% increase).

Cosmic--and the others--only increases the PL maximum for an attribute or power. You still have to dump the points into the PL to raise the score.

It would not make sense for Cosmic to increase the Max PL by a single stat or ability by a specific amount.  Just increase the cost of Cosmic and make it a solid increase.  You will never have a situation where someone buys cosmic, but only buys 4 extra PL with it.  If you want it to cost 78 per Cosmic instead of 60 that's fine (although a bit awkward) but then make Cosmic actually cost 78.

I was just thinking that since no one is going to buy Cosmic and then not up the PL. I will change the costs.

Move:  24 (Cosmic)
(108)

Where does this come from?  I thought that the movement of a character was 4" or the movement of their travel power, which ever was higher.  So I put her travel power down for her movement.

Move is a generic movement power. The above means your character can move 24" per Action as well as dimensionally travel 24" per Action. The 108 points is for 24 at 2pts each + 60 for Cosmic. But I understand what you were trying to do with it.

Now if you can simply purchase movement for 1pt per 1" then I would write 4" (24" w/ DT) and consider making characters with their movement purchased this way instead of through travel powers.  However, I didn't see this anywhere in the rules.

In under Move, just above Spirit, in the Building a Monster Character chapter.

[mratomek]

Bill,

I will try to have all of these rules updated on a change sheet as well as a rules revision by friday morning.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I like the new movement rule.  Make sure you add it into the new rules though, because it is not in the old one.

If you want to make your character move faster than he is capable of doing with his Move score, you can purchase a specific movement power, such as Streak, Swim, Flight, Tunnel, etc. (see the Travel and Time Powers for a complete list).

Move does not cost any points.

Individual power/ability balance issues always occur during major periods of change.  When you find one fix it, but I wouldn't fret to much about them.  For now, worry most about getting your core game play down, major balance (like the finite costs for abilities and exponential rebate for drawbacks) and cutting down calculations.

I strongly recommend that you playtest the no stats version.  I bet that you will see a significant drop in complexity.

Oh, and the only reason I pasted the Dusk Witch was to demonstate the need for changes in the drawback system.  She is just like a powerful Champion but for the price of a low cost Hero.  Her costs would be 1/5 their base instead of 1/32 of it if you were to use the system I recommended.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Combat went something like this:  His first martial artists leaped onto the top of a building.  The Butcher then leaped after, and started tearing into him.  The other martial artist followed and attacked The Butcher.  We spent a while attacking one and other, then his first martial artist died.  Then his second martial artist died.  Then the game was over.

I can say that 3 melee combatants duking it out makes for a very boring game.  We sat there attacking back and forth until one side died.  No strategy was necessary; there were no clever tactics possible.

Duke it out games are not so much fun, but there are tactics. Just out of curiosity, did either of you try a knockdown, knockback, Stun, etc.?

I will say that I liked how Counter worked.  The advantage of a retaliation strike was nicely balanced by the extra damage received.  However, it is not anywhere near as powerful as a defensive power with Hardened.  When I scored 1 higher then my opponent with The Butcher I automatically scored 3 damage (all characters had Deadly) but my opponents would only do 1 even with deadly attacks.  Even though it was less powerful, this was offset by the fact that it only cost 5, instead of the 74 a good defensive power with hardened would have cost.

Ya, I think I need to increase the costs for Hardened, Eternal and undead.

Took another take at SHE...

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  597 Points

Strength:  4
Agility:  0
Perception:  16
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  4
Presence:  24
(184 pts (Includes 80 pts for Cosmic Presence))

Action:  4
Size:  2
Move:  4
Spirit:  Good
(8 pts)

Cosmic (Presence)
Eternal (50)

22 Allure + Pr (4D10+ D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 10, Point Blank, Deadeye, Unearthly, Enhanced+2
((32 + 10 + 50 + 10 + 10 + 60 + 20)/Half = 106)

16 Cosmic Energy + Pr (4d10) (Ranged) (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +1
((32+10)/Half=21)

12  Dimensional Travel + Pr (4D10) (Self) (Dm): Blink
(28 + 10 = 38)

Disability (Agility)
398 Total

[mratomek]

Okay,

I'm a firm believer in being open minded, so I am going to dive deeply into a no-attribute approach to Monster. It changes a lot, but the rules can be quickly adapted using the following changes:

Default Dice:
All characters have a default dice of D4. You can buy higher default dice at 25 pts. per increment (D6, D8, D10, D12, etc.). A character uses their default dice for all dice rolls that they have no other power for.

Attributes
The attributes become generalist powers. So a character could by Agility that wold allow him to attack, defend and make other balance/coordination rolls. However, with the exception of Equipment, Magic, Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly, Cosmic and Enhanced, you cannot purchase any other special abilities for an attribute power.

LIfe
Life is back. Life is the what a character uses to make his Fatality Roll. It Costs 10 pts per PL.

Fatality Roll
A character does not have to make a Fatality Roll unless an opponent uses a Fatality, Knockout or Deathblow wound. Otherwise, when a characters Damage Level exceeds his Life he can attempt a roll, use a special ability (Heroic Deed) or he is eliminated. Minions still roll everytime they are hit.

Damage and Wounds
Not sure if the same 5 hits per wound will hold. Have to try it first. Most Likely, I will have make a 2-Wound hit more severe and a 3 wound hit fatal. Move Glitch and Injury down to 1 wound hits. I will have to mess with it.


TNs for Unopposed Rolls
TNs for Unopposed Rolls should be reduced by half.



Here's a sample character:

Comrade Super
Hero (298)

Default: D4
Actions: 3
Size: 0
Spirit: Good
Move: 6
Life: 8 (D8)

14 Super Strength (D10+D4) Melee (Sk): Mighty
14 Laser (D10+D4) Ranged (Sk): Equipment, Mighy, Deadeye, Single Shot
12 Brawl (D12) Melee (Sk): +1 Enhanced, Combo, Charge, Smash, Grab
12 Invulnerability (D12) Self (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced
8 Discipline (D8) Self (Skill): Equipment
8 Leader (D8) Extended (Skill): Tactics, Strategy
8 Sensors (D8) Extended (Skill): Equipment
Disability (Agilie)
+1 Vitality



She Who is Heaven and Bliss
Champion Cost: 597 Points

Default: D4
Actions: 4
Size: 2
Spirit: Good
Move: 4
Life: 12 (D12)

Eternal: Relic
24 Allure (2D10+ D4) (Ranged) (Dm): Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 10, Point Blank, Deadeye, Cosmic, Enhanced+2
16 Perception (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Enhanced +1
16 Cosmic Energy (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm):  Short Range, Enhanced +2, Deadeye
16  Dimensional Travel (D12) (Self) (Dm): Blink
+1 Vitality
Disability (Agility)


It does make things more simple, while still have a great deal of depth for the character.

[mratomek]

Here's another--I think I like the format and the reduced clutter:

Bruce Lee
Hero (299)

Default: D4
Actions: 3
Size: 0
Spirit: Good
Move: 6
Life: 8 (D8)

16 Weapon (D10+D6) Melee (Sk): Equipment, Ultimate, +1 Enhanced, Combo, Counter, Reach x1, Knockdown, Knock Back, Slam, Taunt
12 Acrobatics (D12) Self (Sk): +1 Enhanced
12 Agility (D12) (Sk)
12 Discipline (D12) Self (Sk)
10 Search (D6) Extended (Sk)
+1 Prodigy
+1 Vitality

[mratomek]

Came up with the perfect formula for determining Hits to Wounds/Success. And it is a lot easier to calculate:

Attack Total - Defense Total / 2 (Rounded Down)


Wounds are awarded at Slight (1 Wound), Severe (3 Wounds), Critical (5 Wounds) and Fatal (7 Wounds). Furthermore, Difficulties for TNs cost half as much.

For example, SHE uses her D16 Cosmic Energy to attack a thug with D8 Armored. SHE rolls a total attack of 13, the thug rolls a total defense of 5. The difference is 8 resulting in 4 wounds. SHE can do 4 Wounds of damage or cause 1 Severe Wound and 1 pont of Damage.

That works out a lot better, because with the new Halving rules for surprise, etc., 2-Wound wounds can be absolutely brutal--especially when a character can score a 0--OUCH!