Looking at the new Mall

[Laurel]

http://mall.rpg.net/faq/merchantfaq.phtml

Folks with previous experience selling downloads?  How do the new RPGNet Mall Merchant terms compare to other services you've used, including hosting everything yourself and going through Paypal?

The immediate benefit I saw from selling through RPGNet is the potential customer base.   But 20% comission seemed steep.  Or am I wrong?

[Jared A. Sorensen]

RPGHost/RPGnow takes the same cut. And while 20% may seem like a healthy chuck, it's still a lot less than the 60% that distributors and retailers take for printed material (my numbers right, Ron?).

I admit that laziness, apathy and one lone 3mm pebble in my ureter have caused me to avoid seeking out either RPGnet or RPGnow to sell my games. One of these days, I might look into it. But hey, the way I see it is that I'd be doing them a favor...not the other way around. I'm *selling* shit off my site.

Then there's that...*other* reason...

I see these online guys as possessing a "cunning glint around the eyes" very similar to the wolfish looks possessed by  retailers/distributors. And the mark (ahem) with his little self-published game looks all-too cute in that little red cape...

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

I'm still not sure why using such a service is superior to selling a game (in electronic format) from one's own website.

Oh, there are lots of small costs to consider. Some folks are hosted here at the Forge, and they have some hosting costs (not much). Some folks pay their own domain costs from a provider, like me. And PayPal does take its small cut. It's true, they add up if you're not looking.

[Side note: I've never understood why people seem to think PayPal takes a lot. When I started this biz, it cost $300, non-returnable, to get the credit card thing set up, and each transaction took a 10% cut. PayPal ain't nothing compared with that.]

But anyway, I'm thinking that a 20% cut is awfully high for the putative benefit of being at a "centralized location." It seems to me that the games that sell well will be those which are (a) promoted well and (b) good. It also seems to me that if you are good at promotion and design, you can get lots of gamers coming to your site without having to cut some deal through a middleman.

My own experience is an excellent example. Sorcerer cleared an obscene profit just in the last couple-three weeks. I cite Jared as another example. I cite Jake Norwood as the most recent example. Driftwood Publishing has an awesome site, a strong forum presence in several places, a good game, and more. What benefit could someone like us gain from selling through RPG.net?

And none of us is anyone special. I'm just a role-player like anyone else, with no industry contacts prior to designing and publishing. And I started the whole thing when I was a poverty-stricken grad student, so it's not a matter of affluence to start.

Oh hell, maybe I'm missing something. I should give the benefit of the doubt and say, "The RPG.net Mall is a great option." And I will say that, provided that someone can explain to me the exact reason that's it such a good option.

Best,
Ron

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

I can't comment much on the Rpg.net Mall, but we're using Rpgnow.com to sell Cartoon Action Hour.  Yeah, 20% is pretty steep.  I can't dispute that.

On the other hand, Rpgnow is taking out full-page ads in magazines, which could generate a lot of business.  So far, we've sold quite a few copies of the game in a short amount of time.  And I hope that the upcoming magazine ads will serve to increase this amount further.

I can't afford to have big ads in the magazines.  I wish I had that kind of money, but it's just not possible just yet.  Until then, I'll happily give 20% of my profit to get this kind of exposure.

Just my opinion. :)

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I can't afford to have big ads in the magazines.  I wish I had that kind of money, but it's just not possible just yet.  Until then, I'll happily give 20% of my profit to get this kind of exposure.

Y'know (and this is totally said with "'I think...' mode" on)...

The guy or gal who would want to play your game is probably not the same person who reads the magazines with the big game ads (dot dot dot...and spends money on those advertised games). I've also told myself, "Yeah, but it would open up my stuff to a whole new audience..." and then I kinda blink a few times and wake up. It is in the advertiser's best interest to keep you thinking "Yeah, they'll come if they know about it!" -- so long as you keep forking over the money.

My revelation has been to not bother with RPGnet/now/whatever online malls. I'll do it myself and I'll rely on word of mouth and help from friends and colleagues...people who genuinally care if people play InSpectres or octaNe or whatever.

I'm content with standing side-by-side with my indie brothers and sisters and helping us all help each other out, hear what I'm saying? Because we're not in it for the money. And we have no reason not to stand together.

I'll be handing out your complimentary black beret and pair o' combat boots at the door...

- J, "Game is Bond."

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

I'm not trying to abandon the indie-game movement or anything.  I'm quite proud to be indie.  I'm merely trying out a particular avenue of marketing.  Heck, you're probably correct about the folks who read those magazines.

But there's a chance ... a slight chance ... that many of those readers just haven't been exposed to the indie-rpg market yet and will really dig what it's all about.

If that theory is wrong, then I'll know better for next time.  Hehe.  If I'm right, then CAH will find its way to new prospective indie-game fans.  I'm honestly not all that concerned with the money ... I just want a lot of people to play my games.  It's been a dream of mine for 16 years.

In any case, perhaps my "plunge" into the net-mall market will be an experiment that we can all gleen knowledge from, for better or worse.  :)

[Valamir]

My revelation has been to not bother with RPGnet/now/whatever online malls. I'll do it myself and I'll rely on word of mouth and help from friends and colleagues...people who genuinally care if people play InSpectres or octaNe or whatever.

Of course, not everybody has the advantage of being a mad game designer from beyond the grave to help out in the word of mouth department ;-)

[Matt Gwinn]

On option you have is to break up your 3mb file into three 1mb files and email them separately.  I think that's what a few people have done in the past successfully.

,Matt G.

Edited because I'm an idiot.  Please disregard this post.  it was intended for another thread.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I'm not trying to abandon the indie-game movement or anything.  I'm quite proud to be indie... :)

I'm probably going to go way off topic with this but this indie-game movement thing grates on me.

This in no way is directed criticism at Cynthia, any other memeber of the Forge, or the Forge itself.

You see, I am an indie RPG designer. (or I would be if I'd get off ass and actually do some work on my stuff but real life concerns are taking precedence right now) And I will remain so until someone runs up to me with the rubber stamp and labels me different.

(aside: and it could happen. It happened to Ozzy. Years of being a counter-culture icon and suddenly he's a mainstream success as a tv dad. Did you see him on Leno? That poor boy from Birmingham who just wanted acceptance was eating it up like candy)

I suppose what bothers me is I'd rather not see indie-rpgs gain that pretense without substance that other groups tend to get. I'd rather not see it as a movement but as a collection of individuals with similar goals help each other where we can to reach those goals.

Or maybe I'm dwelling on this too much.

To bring things back to topic, I don't see this RPGnet mall thing helping the designer/publisher so much as helping the site by giving them more content. Gaming Outpost is doing something similar with their Gaming Library, which , unfortunately, doesn't seem to be working.

The only possible advantage such a thing could be for the designer/publisher that I can thing of is that they don't have to maintain their web page or handle sales and all of that. The Mall handles that. Site maintenence, payment received, sending product, customer service and so on. Not bad for 20%, is it? This way, the d/p can focus on their next project. Much like Ron's experience with, who was it Ron? Tundra?

But then, many d/p's have their own sites that they maintain anyway so I this option isn't all that useful to these people. But if you don't have a site, except maybe a Geocities page with pictures of your pets on it or whatever, and you'd rather not find out about the headache called HTML you could try a mall.

[Emily_Dresner]

I suppose this all comes down to what you want to do.  Please keep in mind the following to salient and somewhat important facts:

1. mall.rpg.net exists only for the benefit of rpg.net.  This is not some kind of altruistic business deal where they dream of helping out the smaller indie publishers.  You selling your games on the site increases their content and generates more of their traffic.  The more people sign up, the more content there is, and the more of the till they walk off with in their pockets.

2. 20% of the take is highway robbery.

Now, if what you want is just get your game out the door in front of as many people as possible, and you're not terribly concerned with who is getting what, and money is no object, then by all means, use this mass distribution mechanism.  It's guarenteed to generate sales and you will get eyeballs.  I don't know for how long or how well, but you will get those eyeballs.  I suspect, for most people, getting eyeballs on the product and drumming up potential business is more important than turning a profit.  After all, we're talking about gaming here, and if you're planning on living off your gaming profits, I have some fine swampland I'd like to sell ya.

But if you do want to establish yourself as a major company, or if you have higher goals than just selling your PDF, then you probably don't want to be doing this.  You want to be concentrating on learning how to sell your product on your own, learning the ins and outs of running a small business, and finding a friend who makes an appropriate weasel to do your marketing, while considering finding enough leverage to work out some better deal.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi,

Well said, Emily.

This post is mainly an aside to point out that "indie-ness" is not an issue in this thread, or anywhere else. We're talking about how to sell one's game, and if Cynthia and Jared have different plans, it's no skin off each other's or anyone else's nose.

So Jack, I think you're reading more "indie-pretense" into the dialogue than is there.

The whole RPG.net mall (or similar) issue is a new one. It's interesting. For all we know, it's the very best way to do it, or the very worst. No one knows. As long as we all try the ways that make most sense to us individually, and as long as this forum at the Forge is a place where we can share the outcomes, then everyone benefits.

Best,
Ron

[Matt Machell]

The biggest advantage I can see in using something like the RPG.net mall is the association with a known brand. It's a trust builder. It'll bring in the people who think twice about sending money through paypal to a designer whose game's site is just a Geocities homepage.

Matt

[Cynthia Celeste Miller]

Aww, heck, I wasn't taking pot-shots at Jared or anything.  Nor do I think he was taking any at me.  I just wanted to point out that I wasn't trying to become "not indie".  :)

And you're definitely right, Ron.  The whole online PDF game store concept is a new one.  There's bound to be upsides and downsides.  It's inevitable.

So far, I've been very pleased with RPGnow's service.  They've been prompt, pleasent and responsive to ideas.  And, to be honest, CAH is selling beyond my expectations.

Ask me again about what I think of RPGnow in a month or two and I may have an entirely different opinion.  Time will tell.  Hopefully, for better or worse, my experiences with selling via online malls will teach us all a few things.  And if I can help out in that regard, then I'll be pleased as punch.  :)

[Jack Spencer Jr]

So Jack, I think you're reading more "indie-pretense" into the dialogue than is there.

This is going off-topic, and I'm sorry about that so I'll try to be quick.

I didn't read pretense in the dialog, but I did see the potential for it. When someone starts talking about an "indie-RPG movement" it can easily gain that quality. Rather than waiting until it grew into full-blown style over substance, I felt some sick need to say something now so that no one would be surprised later.

My thought is: how about we just design RPGs, good one, ones that people want play and let the manner in which its published, independant,  corporate or whatever, be an accident of circumstance.

Besides, if it is indeed an Indie RPG movement, a movement moves only so far then it stops. If the RPGnet Mall is what it takes to get you moving, then go for it, I say. (Like how I brought it back to topic? I tried really hard)

[Tim Gray]

I had some reservations about the RPGnet site, too, but regardless of any disadvantages there might be it does provide:

Profile - as Matt and others mentioned. It links you to a well-established gaming site, which is used by many "industry professionals" among many others - could be good exposure. It also allows you to feed off other people's marketing efforts - they bring people to the site for their stuff, and this "passing trade" might pick up your stuff too.

Hosting - which might be more of an issue than you think. Firstly, if you're using GeoCities to sell stuff (even to sell free stuff) - don't. (EDIT - this was a separate point from what follows, about image and user-friendliness.) Different hosting deals come with limits on data throughput, usually referred to (inaccurately) as "bandwidth", often lurking in the usage agreement that you might not have read. IIRC, 2GB/month is fairly standard. If you have a few-MB file and it's downloaded a lot of times you could break that limit, which usually means your site gets suspended for the rest of the month. So you might get increasing success which eventually scuppers your site. With the RPGnet mall, that's somebody else's problem. Of course, you can find hosting to get round that: for instance, I pay UKP35/yr for webspace with an annual transfer limit and an option to buy extra transfer if I need it.