Things for the Flower of Battle

[malum]

some things i would like to see in tfob:
war rules (mass combat, siege engines, attacking a castle or other type of fortification and doing damage to and destroying fortifications)
more weapons and armor
ship to ship combat rules
ancient firearms
tournament rules (such as jousting)
im also on the side of the argument that doesnt mind seeing more oriental things in it

[Rattlehead]

im also on the side of the argument that doesnt mind seeing more oriental things in it

Count me in for the oriental stuff as well. Seeing realistic[/u] asian weapons and combat info in a game would be great. But let's not forget the rest of Weyrth. I'd like to know more about the other non-european elements of the world. Wasn't there some mention of african bits in the game? Let's hit those as well!

Brandon

[Mokkurkalfe]

I would like a list of tools and their weapon(tool?) stats, for peasant uprising, improvising characters and such.
In fact, I hoped that Jake might supply us(or me, at least) on this very forum with the stats for the kind of work-dagger or knife that everybody wears. I'm sure its mentioned somewhere in the book that everybody has a dagger, but the daggers in the weapon lists seem more like specialised duel daggers.

[Salamander]

I must disagree on the inclusion of Asian style Martial arts. while everyone is afraid that the game would degenerate into Kewl Powerz I disagree there. SNIP

Weyerth is not really Europe and it doesn't exist in the cutlral vacumn that Europe seemed to.

Not wanting Bladeslingers to be replaced with Samurai I can understand but Asian combat ought to be covered sooner or later.

I have to go with Ace on the fact that the addition of Asian abilities, properly done, would not do any damage to the integrity of the game. As long as we consider that the asian side pays more attention to the spiritual aspect. In a way we do as well, ever wonder where the concept of the Fey came from? European folklore and pre-christian pagan value systems.

Well, from my some what limited experience in history, I don't think Europe ever had much in the way of a cultural vacuum. From what I have been able to tell a large amount of trade went on between the neighboring "continents". An example would be the fine silks that began to find their way into Europe, trade became so brisk that a French King (c. 1300's?) actually formed a guild to handle the silks coming from the orient, and what about the Venetians? Or the Florentines? HUGE amount of movement of goods to & from the orient. All this and there is no way that a cultural vacuum, or barrier, existed. It was just that each side thought of the other as savages/heathens etc. I chalk it up to the fact that over the last five hundred years we have lost a lot of the knowledge of what really went on in the day to day life. I mean, even now we don't really know how the swordsmiths made such incredible weapons (I think there are longswords from the 1500's that are better than anything we can make today), of course many great Renaissance men did spend a lot of time at various arsenals, and not for the betterment of their health either.

Please understand this is just a theory, the samurai was a great and very formidable warrior, but from what I am seeing during my training with the longsword, the Meisters and thier students of the time were no less capable.

[Salamander]

I have heard that TFoB will include massed combat rules for battle fields, laying seige, raising seige, seige weapons etc. all very good stuff, I am looking forward to seeing this type of material, as I am planning on a Renaissance Europe based campaign.

I was speaking with Spartan before our current game and he got me to wondering about the other types of proofness in our past, could we beg and plead to see things like ring mail, studded leather and cuir boulli jacks? How about jezeraint (scale) mail and brigandine (coat of plates?). I am sure I am running the risk of getting a murderous look for this, but what about covering some subtypes of weapons? Would a Stilleto do similar types of damage as a Rondel Dagger? How about just clarifying some potential misconceptions such as the destructive capacity of a Flambard? What about differnet types of crossbows? A hunting crossbow is not going to do as much damage as an Arbelest and nowhere near as much as a Seige Arbalest.

How about a short segment on other "Genres"? In this I mean, The Mid East, the Far East and maybe even a bit on the "New World". Just a quick rundown of a functional selection of weapons, armour and schools (proficiencies) for each, and a few paragraphs on each "Genre" to put it in context for us to understand the basics and let us apply it as we see fit.

I agree, we must keep the idea of the Asian Martial Arts doing amazing things in context. They may be amazing to us now, but what about our Fore Fathers? I think that the skill of the samurai can be mirrored in what our own knights and landsknechts (land knights) were capable of. After all, men of great reknown in the fileds of science and art weilded these weapons as well. I cannot see them being brutes lurching about the field and sloppily chopping enemies down. The fighting schools must have also taught their own particular version of science and art.

I would also be glad to assist in researching any of the things I mentioned if that would help bring the book out faster... =)

[arxhon]

I think the idea of martial arts would be OK. Please don't take it to the level that Oriental Adventures did (hard, soft, hard/soft, ki powers, etc., etc., etc.....) If ninjas start walking through walls and samurai start doing episode 2 yoda-style jedi-flips, then i'm going to be really disappointed.

On the issue of guns, I'm not too enamored of them, really. I'm afraid of winding up with the cartoonish wierdness of WFRP (cannons on river boats, dwarven helicopters, steam tanks, et al). Besides, this is the Riddle of Steel, not the Riddle of Flintlocks.

I think the primary thing would be an expansion to the armor rules insofar as area coverage, and some tactical/mass combat. New styles, maneuvers and so on aren't that necessary IMO.

On the hardcover/paperback issue, hardcover all the way, baby! I love hard covers, they look better on the shelf and last way longer than paper back books ever will. I have a 1e dmg with the 'new cover' (wizard in green robes) and it's still in great shape, even after years of use. Only a couple of bent corners. Paperback books fall apart, the covers get bent easily, well, you get the picture.

For the record, I paid an extra $15CDN (about $10US) for the hardcover version of the Realm of Sorcery for WFRP just to ensure the life of the book. Besides, it goes with my hardcover WFRP corebook and the hardcover Realm of Chaos books from 89-91. I would do the same if TFOB came out in hard cover. Same for all the books, actually.

To sum up: Armor, Mass combat, Hardcover book.

[tauman]

I think the idea of martial arts would be OK. Please don't take it to the level that Oriental Adventures did (hard, soft, hard/soft, ki powers, etc., etc., etc.....) If ninjas start walking through walls and samurai start doing episode 2 yoda-style jedi-flips, then i'm going to be really disappointed.

Not to nitpick, but TROS does cover martial arts, it's just Western Martial Arts (as opposed to Eastern Martial Arts). :)

--Steve Reich

[Callan S.]

In regards to asian culture: This idea isn't based on anything concrete. But I sort of connect Japanese fighting culture with intensity of mind and such. I can't remember that culture in the game already that give you a player bonus of being able to have higher faith than five, but like that. These asian cultures let you have a slightly higher max in a SA when wielding their types of weapons (preferably there would be some heritage to the weapon itself, to make it such a focus. Either personal or in general). So its possible to have a higher SA to use with it, but its treated as being lower with other weapons. Intensity.

Eh, that might be a bit kewl powery...oh well. Be sure to allow people to fight while standing on the end of bamboo, heh heh heh.

As to mass combat, screw just rolling one units dice against another units. Well, have that as the basic setting. But have story ideas and/or mechanics that still make the PC's of importance to every battle. So in the end the player can say "Hey, my PC did so and so in that battle to help it be won. And over there, my PC did this clever move around the side and took out one of their commanders, leaving them in disarray". That sort of thing. Ideas and/or mechanics. People are playing characters, when they start running battles that their PC's can't affect much at all (A leadership roll here and there is a bit yawnish to me), their not playing their characters anymore, their just players at a table top game.

But I will say, its probably good its in at the back of the line. I'd need to save for it, and the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.

[arxhon]

Not to nitpick

Ah, but you did anyway...

I meant 'martial arts' in the colloquial sense. You know, ninjas and kung fu and stuff. That's what most people think of when you say "martial arts', so rather than get pedantic, i used the colloquial term.

Edit: Spelling

[Brian Leybourne]

and the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.

Ah yes, Beats and Men, the little known TROS cannibalistic (with vegetables) cookbook ;-)

Brian.

[Brian Leybourne]

some things i would like to see in tfob:
tournament rules (such as jousting)

Well, at least one of your requests will be satisfied quickly. OBAM has jousting rules (as well as lots on horseback combat etc).

If you search back through the forum, you'll find a post from me somewhere outlining how jousting works in TROS/OBAM. It was a while ago though.

Brian.

[Callan S.]

and the Beats and men supplement will probably satisfy me for now.

Ah yes, Beats and Men, the little known TROS cannibalistic (with vegetables) cookbook ;-)

Brian.

I take it your not aware of current events. Mr Norwood is about to bring TROS into a whole new area of combat: Break dance fights! Ged down to da BEATS!

Then again it could be an entire suplement based around the move 'Beat'. Few, things went down hill fast, eh?

[Jake Norwood]

I take it your not aware of current events. Mr Norwood is about to bring TROS into a whole new area of combat: Break dance fights! Ged down to da BEATS!

Then again it could be an entire suplement based around the move 'Beat'. Few, things went down hill fast, eh?

Yeah, that was a big announcement for later. Oh well, the cat's outta the bag...

Jake

[Aaron]

I really can't see what all the fuss about asian martial arts is about.  IMO it's already covered in the current rules if you include just a little tweaking.  Swap the name pugalism for whatever style it is you want to do.  When a character gets a highish level of proficiency maybe give him the choice of picking one of the currrent maneuvers he can't do already and add it to this styles ability.  For every couple of other levels of proficiency add a bit more.  With a slight modification to the kick maneuver ( I took away the activation cost, it seemed like a double penalty when coupled with the higher ATN than a punch, and and added knockdown.  Ro vs TN 8, Knockdwon stat reduced by shock) it becomes pretty reasonable.  Allow the martial artists to defend against mellee weapons by paying the weapon range cost as an activation cost to his defence and their you have a martial artist.  Were they good because they had kewl powers or magic. No. They are just men like their western counterparts who trained really really hard at these things, read high proficiency.  A character with an unaramed proficiency of 12 and total CP of 19 or 20 with say counter, beat and feint as options would be pretty good IMO.
As for the spiritual side add a few new skills.. tea ceremony or whatever and cover it in your spiritual attributes, passion bushido/ master etc.
Aaron.

[Bob Richter]

I really can't see what all the fuss about asian martial arts is about.  IMO it's already covered in the current rules if you include just a little tweaking.  Swap the name pugalism for whatever style it is you want to do.  

The Eastern Martial arts were at least as diverse as their Western counterparts. There was an Eastern equivalent for just about every style in the TROS book (with the possible exception of Lance. I don't think heavy cavalry ever really happened in Asia.)

But more importantly, they are WEIRD. Different schools had very different focuses. Pugilism is a very stand-on-your-feet-and-hit-with-your-hands approach to unarmed combat. Ju-jutsu is something slightly different. Karate is even more different.

I'm not saying they're better, what I am saying is that TROS rules don't really reflect most of them currently, and it takes someone pretty knowledgeable in a style to make up rules for it.