Things for the Flower of Battle

[Jake Norwood]

I'm not saying they're better, what I am saying is that TROS rules don't really reflect most of them currently, and it takes someone pretty knowledgeable in a style to make up rules for it.

Which is why I haven't done it, but anyone with the proper credentials is welcome to contact me about making the proper mods.

Jake

[Valamir]

I for one have absolutely zero desire to see such rules.  The idea of "oh great another game full of fu" leaves me completely disinterested.  Same with movies for me really.  

Fu = Yawn

[contracycle]

I would be inclined to stick to the initial target, european martial arts, rather than produce a generalist overview.  Most of the glamour/colour of the oriental settings have been done to death, and I'd think if you;re gong to do a TROS treatment of them it would be better to take the time and do it right.

[Bankuei]

As someone who's spent some fair time studying "eastern" martial arts, I also don't see what the big, big fuss is.  The overspecialization of some arts(iaijutsu for instance), is the result of an enforced peacetime on a culture(in this case, Japan).  Even the mods that I have done are mostly due to game reasons, not "my martial arts" reasons, and the only couple that are due to that is because my style is pretty funky and out there.

But from real life experience, a knife in your gut is a knife in your gut, whether you call it a inline thrust, an angle 5, or "tiger claw" strike.  When it comes to fighting, used in real life, uneffective stuff gets pushed to the side.  The only major difference in styles comes about to what's effective against who you are fighting, in the environment you're in, with the weapons available to you.

Weather and materials determine armor(Is it too hot for armor?).  Environment and armor determine fighting tactics(is there room for calvary?  How many people can we get on a field?  Is it mountains?  Jungle?).  Environment, material, tactics and armor determine weapons.  Weapons and tactics determine style.  Style then influences things again as people adapt.  It's a nasty complicated web, held together by blood and prayers, and somehow, someone figures out the key connection to win enough to be called a victor.  

East or west, is irrelevant.  It's living or dead.

Chris

[Jake Norwood]

Chris-

I gotta agree with that one.

jake

[Aaron]

Which is why I haven't done it, but anyone with the proper credentials is welcome to contact me about making the proper mods.

Jake

I've been doing Muay Tai for a couple of years, thats why I made the modifiers to kick.  As for the rest I agree with Chris.  Especially with regard to environment and armour.  Give characters real reasons why it's not a good idea to wear their armour in certain conditions.
For the mass combat rules I'll throw my two cents in and say I'd like to see rules or suggestions in TFOB on how to play characters through a large battle or melee.  I'd like to see a mass battle played from the PC's perspective.  I'm think of the opening battle in Gladiator with the camera focusing on Maximus.  Parry a blow from someone on the left, dodge and kill someone coming straight at you, nearly strike an ally, knocked down and saved by a friend(i knoewit wasn't like that in the film but you know what I mean!!).  That sort of thing.  Something that really reflects the chaotic nature of mass combat.
Aaron

[Jake Norwood]

For the mass combat rules I'll throw my two cents in and say I'd like to see rules or suggestions in TFOB on how to play characters through a large battle or melee.  I'd like to see a mass battle played from the PC's perspective.  I'm think of the opening battle in Gladiator with the camera focusing on Maximus.  Parry a blow from someone on the left, dodge and kill someone coming straight at you, nearly strike an ally, knocked down and saved by a friend(i knoewit wasn't like that in the film but you know what I mean!!).  That sort of thing.  Something that really reflects the chaotic nature of mass combat.
Aaron

My personal feelings are to see really 2 mass combat systems. One for running the fight and it's outcome, another for what the PCs are doing there as individuals (Pendragon does this second one rather well, IMO).

Jake

[Todd M. Sullivan]

Hi All,

 I'm new here but I'm in ARMA with Jake.  I'm trying to read as much as I can on the forum to catch up and a real old rpg player and GM from way back.

 I read some questions in reference to mass combat rules. IMO the more rules you make the more confused you and the players will get. K.I.S.S. (Keep it simple stupid) as we say in the military.  When I run mass combat I role (ROLE) play the hell out of it.  When I would run a bar brawl for example that occured from  a duel gone wrong I would role play it.  I would throw something at my players, leave them for thought and then come back to them.  For EXAMPLE:  I would tell John "As the fighting is going on in front of you some one comes up from behind you and attempts to put you into a head lock.....I'll get back to you....think about what you're going to do" and then I would move on to the person and go around the table.  

 You can have a player faced off against 5 people and role play 3 of them and the other 2 you can "use the rules of combat/use the dice"  It speeds the game up, sparks the imagination and accomplishes the player's main mission which is to have fun :)

  I never say "o.k. you've been hit" no no....live it up a little...."his blade on his falchion draw cuts across your forearm and the knicks in the edge tear at your flesh and you can see the pleasure in his eyes as you bite down sucking your sweat in" but say it quickly and move the game along.

 Just giving some helpful pointers

Cheers,

Todd

[Vanguard]

I reckon the cool thing about TROS' system is it's generic-ness (hmmm, good word).

I don't believe the system needs elaborating in order to portray eastern styles. The varied manouvers discussed within pretty much describe the process of combat irespective of style.  

Differing schools and styles would have an in-game effect as far as I see it.  A particular school, or clan of people, might have techniques which get fighters to a certain level of combat-awareness, ken, etc... quicker and more efficiently than other schools. They are thus more likely, as an institutation, to have more capable warriros amongst their ranks than a more inferior technique.  But a proficiency level 5 Kung-fu dude, or Karate dude, or ninja dude, or swashbuckler dude, are all lvl 5.  They are all of a comparative similar level. Only the approaches they favour would set them apart in any way.  

This ingame effect would also show itself in tendencies.  Certain schools might favour aggressive tactics.  Another might concentrate on feints and the integration of close-quarter combat to melee weapons.

These factors would thus influence NPCs over the PC.  The coolness of TROS comes in some part from that riddle-seeking aspect, that freedom of the PC as being an entity free of cultural bias, searching for something more meaningful than conformity.  As such, though a PC might originate from a particular school, the player is free to play the character as he wishes, even though his npc buddies might follow a certain established approach.

You want rules for ijitsu (that spelled right?... the art of quick-draw)? You want ur samurai PC to perform that most cool of techniques and bring down the incompetent thug in one graceful strike? Then have the PC keep his weapon sheathed (forcing a reflex test when the thug attacks) followed by a 'seize initiative' manouever in order to strike first.  You gotta have enuff dice, I grant you.  But only a master samurai would pull the move off to begin with. So there you go, instant quick-draw.

Sorry, another rant.  But this was to state my belief that TROS doesn't require further elaboration in order to portray eastern styles. The system's flexibility allows for them already. More rules would just confuse the matter.  




Take care

[Todd M. Sullivan]

But this was to state my belief that TROS doesn't require further elaboration in order to portray eastern styles. The system's flexibility allows for them already. More rules would just confuse the matter.  

Take care

Van,

 I agree.  GM's should also take into consideration that they can build and create for thier players. Such as if a player wants to add a guild or fencing parlor and from those schools a certain technique is created. If the players takes time to present some work conducted on the subject than the GM should be more than willing to assit in creating or adding to thier gaming table, as long as it is not some incredible instant kill technique.

 Coming from ARMA many folks don't realize the grappling, wrestling, and hand to hand fighting is available in europeon historical manuals. Asia is not the only continent that has elaborate fighting systems in using a weapons, hand or foot and that is what I think TROS is all about.  Such as one of the 5 primary gaurds called Oches (OX) in which a person goes into this position from drawing forth a long sword from it's scabbard, simular to the japanese quick/draw cut.

 I remember Oriental Adventures wasn't a very big success for TSR.  If player wants something, such as a Ronin type character for TROS then I say it is up to the GM if that character comes into thier world.  I personnally am a big fan of Mifune :)

 A good GM should always be open to suggestions from players but be firm and not let the players walk on him/her.  When I GM I am firm but I'm fair and not a "killer" GM. My players know they can't sit an argue a point.  If I tell them that something happened and it goes against the rules, they know I'm doing it for a reason and that reason increases the flavor of the game and doesn't physically or mentally take away from thier characters.

Just my 2 cents

Cheers,

Todd

[MrGeneHa]

Just another 2 cents on Asian martial arts from me.

I'd like to see some more on unarmed combat.  Maybe different stats on kicks (spin, jump whatever).  And some more weapon stats.  Maybe armor.  And that would be most all you'd need for 'official' TRoS Asian martial arts.

If people want a cinematic TRoS Asian Martial Arts Supplement, they should do it on a website.  I'd be curious to see what they'd do!

Gene

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I ran a campaign with a sumarai player character and made no modifications and the game ran great. I used the number of dice used in an attack and the location to depict the nature of the attack. A spinning roundhouse kick was lots of dice to the head which the system as is handled superbly well.

[Eamon Voss]

Just say no to 'Orientalism'

For starters, amongst other things, I practice Oriental martial arts.  I did 7 years of Kali and 7 years of Muay Thai.  I've also got a black belt in Tae Kwon Do (softer on my body than Muay Thay now that I am getting older), and am working towards a black belt in Kendo.  I've played with European weapons a bit, and am a fan of John Clements, ARMA, and the whole Western Martial Arts stuff.

The problem with adding in Oriental weapons is what do you add in?  Japanese stuff?  Fine, but then you risk having all the uninformed jump in and tell you that you got the characteristics of the weapon wrong.  In fact, one of the reasons I think Exalted from White Wolf never included the Katana is because your average role-player seems to think that a Katana can kill a T-Rex with a single cut.

Of course, if the Katana was so awesome, then why didn't Japan definitively conquer Korea, China, and the rest of the world with this super-sword?  They didn't.  One might argue that internal politics prevented this from happening, but after the Tokugawa Shoganate took control, you would have thought that if the Japanese sword was so awesome that the unified Japanese command would have taken over the world.

Which doesn't match anything from real Japanese history.  In Japanese history, the sword is a duelling piece, not a battlefield item.  The spear (Yari) and naginata and bow were the battlefield killers.  The Samurai didn't charge in to the fray with swords drawn.  Nope, the Samurai of the Sengoku Jidai were doing what their comrades in England were doing at the same time, except they called their favorite polearm a 'naginata' instead of a 'brown bill'.

Then there is the forging issue.  We can debate it forever, but the swords of the 1500-1600s European smiths showed an incredible level of metalurgical skill.  They could be used against flesh and bone and armor and bend with the strike, coming back to the original shape.  They held an edge for a decent period of time.  The Japanese sword, in comparison was a stiff slashing weapon designed for use in unarmored duels.  Very different.  Not better or worse, just very different.  But how do you convince average gamer joe to understand this bit of history?

By keeping clear of Orientalism it means you don't have to worry about this critique so much.  People leafing through TROS at a gaming store don't gripe that the 'katana is done wrong'.

One more thing, on kicks and Samurai.  Samurai were primarily grapplers, not strikers.  Karate is an import from Okinawa.  And Jiu-Jitsu in all its classical forms doesn't kick higher than the leg, when it does bother to kick at all.

Finally, from 7+ years experience with weapons I know that doing that in a kick to the head against an armed opponent just gives said opponent the chance to ruin my leg.

[Jake Norwood]

::Sound of clapping::

Jake

[Ben Lehman]

Would just like to reiterate that there is really no need for vast changes to oriental styles in RoS.  My group at home (apparently) has been using the RoS rules for a game about ninjas with little or no difficulty.  It's all the same weapons.

yrs--
--Ben