First Kayfabe Print Run

[Matt Gwinn]

I hope this doesn't hurt my sales.

I got my copies of Kayfabe today and I have to admit that I am not 100% satisfied with the way it turned out.  The crease/binding is cracked from the folding process and some of the glossy coating is peeling around some of the staples.  Don't get me wrong, it looks great for what I paid (and what I'm charging), but I was hopeing for perfection.  After looking at it many times I think the problem is in the thickness of the cover and likely not the fault of the printer.  Aside from that I have no complaints.  The interior looks really sharp and the cover art looks great.  It definetly looks better than a printed PDF or the ashcans of Wyrd I did last year.

What I'm wondering is if it would be worth my time to complain to the printer about the spine or should I have expected that?  I think I recall someone warning me that would happen.

,Matt G.

[pigames]

Maybe. What kind of paper did you choose? Is it laminated? How many pages is it? How is it bound (stapled I assume)?

Most covers need to be scored before folded. This eliminates most of the cracking (but not all). The paper and print method could also affect this.

If you tell me the details (the printing method and binding method), I'll try to give you an answer. I used to work for a print house.


Brett Bernstein
Politically Incorrect Games
www.pigames.net

P.S. Congrats on getting your game printed. I've heard good things about it, but haven't really gotten around to finding out more.

[Matt Gwinn]

It was digitally printed.
The cover is on CS1(?) glossy 80# card stock
The interior is 32 pages on 50#
The binding is saddle stitched

,Matt

[pigames]

80# card stock needs to be scored before folding. I suggest you find out what type of printer/press was used. Laser printers will "scratch", oil based ink presses typically don't.

Can I ask you where you got it done?


Brett
www.pigames.net

[Matt Gwinn]

It's called Color K Corp
It's in Miami

I suggest you find out what type of printer/press was used. Laser printers will "scratch", oil based ink presses typically don't.

The cover isn't scratched or anything like that.  It actually looks pretty good.  It's just the fold of the spin that is bad.  Some are better than others.  It's like when you fold a piece of paper and then run your fingernail across the fold so it's easier to tear.

It's not terrible, but it doesn't look very professional.

,Matt

[pigames]

So, what I think you're saying is that the spine is warped?

I'm not exactly sure what you're seeing. Any job from a printer should look professional. If it's not they are no good. If they tell you that the price they gave you was for this quality then they have inferior equipment or they simply lack professionalism.

Either way----talk to them!

What kind of place is this Color K Corp? Local print shop, online printer, or something else?

Brett
www.pigames.net

[Matt Gwinn]

They are a short run print place.  They do 4 color process and digital printing (what I got).  I went with them because they were what I could afford.  I'm going to give them a call tomorrow and see if I can determine what the deal is.

,Matt

[pigames]

Digital printing comes in many forms. I'm assuming that in their case it is a laser printing method, which will crack. Also, it sounds like the spine wasn't scored (it should have been). It isn't always done to save time and money.

Good Luck.

Brett
www.pigames.net

[Chris Passeno]

Ditto on everything Brett said.
Scoring should have been offered to you from the get go.  Any cover stock, in particular a Coated Coverstock, needs to be scored before bookletted.  (Note: C1S means coated-one-side)

Digital Printing is a buzz-word.  Most every copier is digital in some way.  Brett is right, it sounds like they output to a Color Copier (Color Laser Copier).  Copiers use Toner.  Toner is finely ground plastic.  The toner is melted when it goes through the fuser unit in the copier.  If you have toner going over a place that is scored or folded, it will crack the toner.  Sometimes you can get away with leaving a white line right where the score is gonna be.

Coated paper is just that.  It has a coating on it when it's made at the Mill.  Up til about 3 years ago, Tech's would flip a gasket if they found out that ya sent glossy paper thorough the color copiers.  Even today, the older Techs don't care for it, something about the coating fusing to the rollers. This doesn't mean that it can't be done, my shop tends to steer people away from gloss on a CLC, but we will still use it.

Your inside paper is a 50# Offset.  Paper is measured by the poundage.  This poundage is on several different scales.  A lot of times this poundage overlaps.  I.E.  20# Bond=50# Offset, 24# bond=60# Offset, 28# bond=70# Offset.  Poundage is determined by the weight of a ream of parent sheets.  To compound this, different types of paper have different size parent sheets.  Parent sheets can range from 17x22 to 28x40.

If your printer didn't offer you scoring, then they were wrong.  I would complain.  At the least, they should give you a discount to avoid the expense of rerunning the job again.

Later,
Chris

[Matt Gwinn]

They never offered me scoring.  You would think they would just do it if the end product would be flawed otherwise.

Kayfabe doesn't use a full bleed on the cover so the problem with the toner cracking wasn't a problem.  The problem is with the actual paper.  I opened one copy  flat and the cover tore away from the staple.

I sent the company an email which has been our pimary method of communication and hopefully we can arange something.  I'm hopeing I can send the copies I have back and they will redo the print run as it is only 50 copies and shouldn't be much of a loss to them, considering it was their screw up.

,Matt

[pigames]

Full bleed doesn't mean that the toner can't crack. It can occur wherever the sheet is folded or in some way mistreated. But, anyway, if the paper tore, they may have scored it, but the machine may have been set too close and the score was closer to cutting.

Either way, they owe you!!! Chris is right - a discount is in order at the very least, but torn covers warrants a redo.

[Paul Czege]

I opened one copy flat and the cover tore away from the staple.

You mean you have holes in the cover now where the staples tore through, and bits of cover still attached to the staples where they can now be seen against the title page? The cover is still attached to the book, right? It didn't tear completely away, did it?

[Eugene Zee]

Matt,

It sounds like you definitely deserve another run at no cost.  You should not pay at all for it and don't let them bamboozle you.  Let them know that you are a client that is interested in a future printing many books with them.  Insist on quality, if they agreed to the price they are responsible for producing it properly.  Inexpensive doesn't mean shoddy workmanship.  If they know what they are doing they will rerun at no charge and give you a discount on your next run.  If they don't do that report them to the BBB and continue to hound them.

Don't hesitate to subtly show that you are a little pissed, either.  Imagine the cover tear happens to twenty or even just one of your constituents.  That's not right.

Good luck.

[Chris Passeno]

At that small of a print run, I doubt that they scored it.  It would take longer to set up the scorer than it would to run the sheets.  That's not very economical.
The paper cracking and falling off definately sounds like a no-score problem though.

[Matt Gwinn]

You mean you have holes in the cover now where the staples tore through, and bits of cover still attached to the staples where they can now be seen against the title page? The cover is still attached to the book, right? It didn't tear completely away, did it?

Not exactly.  The front and back of the cover are fine, the image is fine.  Imagin having a folder and then running a cheese grater across the folded edge.  that's a little like the way they look.  The cover is still attached but by only one staple instead of two (for now).

This is what the guy wrote back to me today. Bad grammar and all.

Matthew
The think the problem you saw with the cover is the scoring, the problem is quantity, to have a perfect folding on cardstock is necessary score the paper before folding, in this case both process was done manually because it is impossible set up the machine for score only 50 covers, So I don´t know exactly what tell you about how to resolve this problem because a new run will be the same. The solution can be replace the covers with a non cardstock paper. I can print the covers on 80# gloss text and send it to you to replace for the others.
Daniel

What he suggests would require me to take apart all 50 copies and put them back together myself...I could have done that at work for free.  What I'm considering is sending the copies back and getting my money back, which could be a pain in the ass since I paid by credit card.

My other option is to simply give the print copies away to anyone that buys the PDF.  Anyone that buys a print copy at GENCON will also get a copy of the PDF.  

Keep in mind that what they sent is better than what I can do on my own.  And if I could produce something of equal quality I doubt I'd be as irritated as I am now.  It's still sturdier than something sold in a 3-ring binder and could last longer that a poorly bound book (i.e. SLA Industries).  I was just hopeing for more.

I intend to get the opinion of Hardcoremoose after he gets a chance to see it.

,Matt G.