My game about, for lack of a better term, Dirty Princesses

[Bullbar]

I've been developing a new game idea (and I'm the first to admit it's a somewhat limited concept but I'm happy with that).

Vaguely, because I haven't worked out the details, it's about a fantasy world where the biggest and baddest empire is led by a monarchy made up of Warrior-Queens. And when the Princesses of this kingdom come to age, they're sent out into the greater world on some sort of Quest. Those who return are fit to rule.

So the players are, of course, these Princesses. I've more or less got mechanics written up, including a strong encouragement to betray and backstab your sisters.

The trouble I'm having is with structure. I want some kind of inbuilt structure to drive it forward and towards the (bloody) conclusion. I want 'stages' of the story, starting where they sally forth from the castle in shining armour with valiant companions amount majestic steeds and leading to the point where they're dirty and alone and hungry and hurt and then leading onto the final leg of their quest where they find glory and become comfortable with their role as warriors.

So how do I achieve that kind of structure, without being too constraining? A framework to achieve my goals.

Also, just a note, but this is in no way an exercise in misogyny. They were originally Princes, but a friend suggested that Princesses might be cooler.



- David

[Vulpinoid]

This has great potential.

I'm getting imagery of the graphic novel/movie "Stardust", but with the gender roles reversed.

Each character forced to look on as their sisters fight amongst one another for the throne of their kingdom.

There's all sorts of potential for escalation mechanics, treachery and intrigue rules. Courtly machinations and combat (both high and low).

The princess idea is a cool twist.

V

[dindenver]

Dave,
  I have found that win/win mechanics drive this sort of story/play.
  What I mean is, take ...In Space! as an example. In this game, story is influenced by tokens. Whenever there is a conflict, players bid tokens. The winner gets to narrate, the loser gets the winners tokens. What this leads to is optimal play where the players loses early challenges (gaining tokens and depleting others' tokens) in order to win later challenge (when the oppositions' lack of tokens make it hard to lose).
  I have seen other win/win mechanics drive this sort of play as well. I hope this helps, let me know if you have any questions or concerns, good luck with your design!
Link:
http://www.gregstolze.com/inSpaaace.zip

[Anders Larsen]

Cool idea!

I can see two ways of handling such a story arc.

The first is to premake a series of scenes that focus on forcing the characters into harder and harder challenges. The first scenes could then be something very simple and naive like "killing the evil monster", where it is easy to be the hero. But later the challenges will get much more morally fussy, where it is not easy to know what is the right thing to do, and where the princesses will get unpopular no matter how they try to solve the problem.

The other way is to focus on something in the character which changes. The way I think I would go about such thing is to give the characters a number of triads or descriptors (or whatever you will call them) that illustrate their vanity. It can be stuff about how arrogant they are, how they see themselves as better than common people, how they focus on their looks and so on. During their adventures, they have to get rid of these vanity descriptors to survive, and try to gain some more positive descriptors. Of cause it should be hard to get rid of the vanity descriptors, because it is how the princesses define themselves in their social life, and of course it is just as hard to rebuild yourself as a new person.

You can of course also make a combination of the two.


Is it something like this you are after?

- Anders

[Bullbar]

The other way is to focus on something in the character which changes. The way I think I would go about such thing is to give the characters a number of triads or descriptors (or whatever you will call them) that illustrate their vanity. It can be stuff about how arrogant they are, how they see themselves as better than common people, how they focus on their looks and so on. During their adventures, they have to get rid of these vanity descriptors to survive, and try to gain some more positive descriptors. Of cause it should be hard to get rid of the vanity descriptors, because it is how the princesses define themselves in their social life, and of course it is just as hard to rebuild yourself as a new person.

You can of course also make a combination of the two.


Is it something like this you are after?

- Anders

I like both of those ideas very much, and can see myself incorporating both. Except I like the second part even better. They essentially start out with a bunch of social and appearance related traits and some rudimentary combat training and slowly have to trade it all in for more practical skills. And your idea about upping the difficulty of each successive stage is so simple and perfect it somehow didn't seem obvious to me.

The other ideas I've been wanting to incorporate are 'back at court' scenes and flashbacks as a way of introducing new abilities and talents.

[Callan S.]

...and leading to the point where they're dirty and alone and hungry and hurt and then leading onto the final leg of their quest where they find glory and become comfortable with their role as warriors.

Is the idea they always end up comfortable with their roles as warriors?

Would it be unappreciated play if they didn't do what it took to survive when hungry and alone, because what it'd take is wrong and as a consequence, just die at that point? Or if they get to the end and decide they f'n hate being warriors or lothe the system that decided this is how you treat people/them?

Or is it more "If you had fun doing that in game, cool, but it's not really what I'm focused on as the fun of the game"?

[Vulpinoid]

Would the game be focused around a climactic showdown between fighting princesses? Or would you foresee treachery as a viable means to achieve the objective of the throne?

I'd think there's just as much potential to explore the ugliness of lost morality, as there is potential to explore the dirtiness of combat.

One player could try to win the hearts of the common people by vanquishing monsters, another player could try to win the favour of courtiers by cutting lucrative deals, a third could consort with mages or criminals (and could actually be the source of the monsters being fought by the first princess).

I'd consider running the game diplomacy style. A communal scene of courtly intrigue and machination (where physical violence is severely frowned upon), followed by a lone scene where the princess attempts some kind of action to gain herself some more favours for the next court scene.

In this type of set up, a few types of favour could be indicated: Common Folk, Merchants, Courtiers, Criminals, Mages, Military, Church. The princess who has accumulated the most prestige points in a field gains the favour of that field and this might provide some kind of mechanical benefit. A Princess might then need to have the favour of a majority of groups before they may make a claim to the throne (I'd deliberately keep an odd number of favour types for this reason).

Along the way, calling in favours from a field could give an instant benefit; but it costs prestige and the princess loses status in the eyes of that group because she's not strong enough to handle things on her own.

Maintaining connection to a field might put other restrictions on the actions of the princess: a princess with strong Military favour would be expected to deal with things by show of arms, while a princess in the favour of the church would have to show piety and honour the gods. Moral dilemmas could arise when a princess has to perform an action to retain a certain type of favour without losing another.

Of course..these options might just be overcomplicating the situation that you have in mind.

Just Ideas...

V

[Paul Czege]

Have different types of quests that give specific flavors/colors of tokens. A triumph of diplomacy gives a gold token, perhaps. A triumph of military leadership a different color. Each princess is vulnerable to specific combinations of tokens, and can only be slain by a sister who has accumulated the right ones. You'll get different story arcs for each sister, but not by forcing the characters through a flowchart.

Paul

[Bullbar]

Is the idea they always end up comfortable with their roles as warriors?

Would it be unappreciated play if they didn't do what it took to survive when hungry and alone, because what it'd take is wrong and as a consequence, just die at that point? Or if they get to the end and decide they f'n hate being warriors or lothe the system that decided this is how you treat people/them?

Or is it more "If you had fun doing that in game, cool, but it's not really what I'm focused on as the fun of the game"?

The fun, as I see it, lies in the clash between these relatively proper princesses and the greater more grubby world.

So using it to chart a tale where she decides to reject the system or that it's not worth it? Awesome, I like your story and interpretation of the theme.

[Bullbar]

Would the game be focused around a climactic showdown between fighting princesses? Or would you foresee treachery as a viable means to achieve the objective of the throne?

I'd think there's just as much potential to explore the ugliness of lost morality, as there is potential to explore the dirtiness of combat.

(Snip other cool stuff)
Of course..these options might just be overcomplicating the situation that you have in mind.

Just Ideas...

I think if anything, my initial concept was on the side of being too simple. The reason for that is that originally I envisioned it as the story arc for a d&d campaign. It has since become a bit more.

You're right, there is a whole world of tarnished morality to explore that is just as interesting as tarnished armour.

I have to go back and do some rethinking.

[Callan S.]

The fun, as I see it, lies in the clash between these relatively proper princesses and the greater more grubby world.

So using it to chart a tale where she decides to reject the system or that it's not worth it? Awesome, I like your story and interpretation of the theme.

I dunno if she would or not. I'm asking if the ambiguity of whether she would, and the discovery of its answer in play - would that come first? Or be cool as one thing you could do with the game? Either is fine as an answer.

I've had some wine, so I might be over posting.

[Anders Larsen]

I have to go back and do some rethinking.

Oh, be careful. I may be wrong, but it seems to me that you risk falling into the trap of "too many good ideas". This can really freeze you up. This can easily happen when you post on this forum, that you get so many good ideas that you can not choose which one to go for, or you try to incorporate all of them into your design, which in many cases is impossible.

I think it will be good for you to reiterate your original idea, but think about what kind of experience you what this game to produce for the players. What should be fun for the player when they play this game?

This will also make it easier to come with suggestion that are more in line with your vision.

- Anders

[Vulpinoid]

I've gotta agree with Anders here.

A lot of people will give you ideas around here (I tend to fit into that category), and some of them will be good.

Think about the core game concept...work through a "Power 19" if you think the concept is up to it.

If you want the game to be about down-and-dirty cat-fighting princesses desperate to gain control over mommy's empire...then your original concept might stand up really well without any of the extra suggestions made.

But if there's something deeper that you were trying to convey through the game, then it might help to pull that aspect out and see what ideas help to mesh with it to produce another gaming experience.

Your core idea sent my mind running on a few different tangents, some of which might mesh with what your trying to do...most of which won't.

V

[Bullbar]

I've gotta agree with Anders here.

A lot of people will give you ideas around here (I tend to fit into that category), and some of them will be good.

Think about the core game concept...work through a "Power 19" if you think the concept is up to it.

If you want the game to be about down-and-dirty cat-fighting princesses desperate to gain control over mommy's empire...then your original concept might stand up really well without any of the extra suggestions made.

But if there's something deeper that you were trying to convey through the game, then it might help to pull that aspect out and see what ideas help to mesh with it to produce another gaming experience.

Your core idea sent my mind running on a few different tangents, some of which might mesh with what your trying to do...most of which won't.

V

That's one of the problems with these concepts the drop themselves into my head... I never know quite which end of the scale I want to take them to. On one hand, I like the idea of a fairly simple adventure game that focuses on this theme. On the other, I would like something with flashbacks and scenes of courtly intrigue and mechanics charting their influence with various power groups and all that stuff... I just tend to throw it in the 'too difficult' pile and run with the simpler solution.

The fundamentals of the idea that are immutable are:
- A group of Princesses go out adventuring into the greater (dirty and dangerous) world.
- They bicker, backstab, betray and bitch.
- Some kind of throwback to their previously easier life, like flashbacks

That's it. Everything else is up in the air.

[David C]

To get your mind rolling, here's some quick ideas I came up with for your name.

How about "The Princess's struggle" or "Trials and Tribulations" or "Trials and Tribulations of the Princesses of (Kingdom)" Or "The Struggle of the Princesses of (Kingdom)"?