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Author Topic: [Babel] 2nd try, system theory and numbers light  (Read 1083 times)
Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« on: April 02, 2010, 11:27:35 AM »

Yesterday I posted my first draft of my combat rules and so far I have received no feedback; which is I suppose feedback in and of itself.

I though rather then bump that thread I would try to explain my goals in designing a new system and hopefully that will be more interesting to people and maybe even get someone interested enough to critique the rules.

What I am trying to do is create a system that better simulates not real combat but the type of fights you see in anime like Ghost in the Shell, Hong Kong action movies, and the Matrix.

To better model those fights I've largely done away with the idea of passive defense.  So characters have no armor class or defensive value that attacks must exceed in order to hit.

Instead the system is built around having a large pool of active defenses options and follow-ups to attacks called, respectively, Defensive and Offensive counters.

So every time someone attacks you you have the option to do something.

It could be something as simple as trying to avoid the attack:
Side Step
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Dodge [Dex].  Each success removes one success from the triggering attack roll.  Using Side Step against a firearm imposes a 2 dice penalty of your roll.

or a dodge/move:
Back Flip
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter, Persistent
Effect: Roll Dodge [Dex].  For each success rolled you may move 1 square away from the triggering attacker in a straight line.  For each inch moved remove one success from the triggering attack roll.  Until the beginning of your next turn all other attacks against you suffer a 2 dice penalty to hit.

a dodge/counter attack:
Riposte
Melee Defensive Counter
Effect: Parry the triggering attack.  After the attack is fully resolved Strike the triggering target.
            Special: If the triggering attack did damage to you you suffer a 1 die accuracy penalty to the
                          Strike for each level of damage you took.

or something even more interesting:
Face Off
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter,  Interrupt
Effect: Roll Firearms [Per].  Remove 1 level of damage from the triggering attack  for each success rolled. Before he is allowed to use an Offensive Counter Aim at the triggering target and Ready a Head Shot.  Make a contested Dex roll with the triggering target.  If you lose he may immediately Ready an attack against you.
            Special: You may only use Stand Off once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
                          of the weapon used.

The idea being instead of taking your turn and standing around while other people take theirs every time someone interacts with you you interact with them.

On your turn you can also follow up basic attacks with Offensive Counters, which can do many thing.

Allow you to move:
Shift
Melee/Ranged Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Move up to 2 inches.

Set yourself up for a stronger attack:
Opening
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: You gain a 2 dice bonus to accuracy and a 1 dice bonus to damage on your next melee attack made against the triggering target.

Add some effect to the attack you just made:
Nerve Strike
Melee Offensive Counter
Effect: If the triggering attack hit make an Martial Arts[Dex] roll opposed by a Constitution or Willpower roll.  If you score more successes then your target he is Stunned.

or make another attack:
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter
Effect: Recover 1 Offensive Counter and make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
            Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
                          of the weapon used.

The limiting factor to counters is that while you have a lot of them each time you use one it is gone for the encounter.  However you can also get some of them back during a fight; if they have the Recoverable keyword.

This is to encourage players to use something other then their most powerful moves over and over.

For example here are three basic Brawl attacks:
Punch: Accuracy: +2 , Damage: 3 [Str]
Jab: Accuracy: +2, Damage: 1 [Str]
        Special: Recover 1 Defensive Counter 
Kick: Accuracy: +0, Damage: 5 [Str]

Punch and Kick are your basic trading accuracy for damage attacks.  Jab however is worse then Punch in every way except it allows the player to recover a defensive counter.  So hopefully the decision of when to punch/kick and when to use something like jab adds another layer of strategy to the combat.

Anyways that is what I'm going for/working on.  Any and all feedback is appreciated and thanks for your time!

The mechanics thread can be found here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=29597.0

And basic setting info here:
http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/index.php?topic=29551.0
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
FetusCommander
Member

Posts: 21

also Rudy


« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2010, 01:45:26 PM »

I like the idea of anime combat, and I also like your game setting (God disappearing is interesting, and a little similar to my Melkrin setting).

How much "colorful narration" would there be involved in these fights?  The actual description, or in the case of manga and animation- the visuals, of anime battles are what makes me really interested in them.  Is the onus to narrate interesting gun play/sword play and insane situations more on the player or the DM? 

I can kind of picture this as a card game, where someone is saying "My feet leave the ground as I levitate up into the air and rain down a HAIL OF LEAD on the angel, then I narrowly SHIFT my position to avoid his return fire!"  Is this sort of how it works?  Are these maneuvers on cards, or do you just call them out as keywords to aid the dice?

I'd really be interested in seeing an example of combat from a narrative standpoint.  Like, what the players saying/doing at the table when combat goes off.

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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 02:15:43 PM »

I like the idea of anime combat, and I also like your game setting (God disappearing is interesting, and a little similar to my Melkrin setting).

How much "colorful narration" would there be involved in these fights?  The actual description, or in the case of manga and animation- the visuals, of anime battles are what makes me really interested in them.  Is the onus to narrate interesting gun play/sword play and insane situations more on the player or the DM? 

I can kind of picture this as a card game, where someone is saying "My feet leave the ground as I levitate up into the air and rain down a HAIL OF LEAD on the angel, then I narrowly SHIFT my position to avoid his return fire!"  Is this sort of how it works?  Are these maneuvers on cards, or do you just call them out as keywords to aid the dice?

I'd really be interested in seeing an example of combat from a narrative standpoint.  Like, what the players saying/doing at the table when combat goes off.

Thanks!

To answer your question I am shamelessly stealing the idea of Stunting from White-Wolfs Exalted game.  So whenever yo take an action you would get a 1 or 2 dice bonus to it if you describe it in a cool or interesting way.

A chard game is a very good analogy,and your almost exactly right.

If someone said "I counter with Hail of Lead" they would get to make all the checks as written with no bonus or penalty.

If they use Hail of Lead said something like "I whip around firing as I go" they would get a 1 die bonus to the attack roll.

If they use Hail of Lead and really get into it "as the Angle ducks to the right and begins to take flight to avoid my last shot I leap up against the wall and fire off a burst as I flip over him" they would get a two dice bonus.

In all cases they use Hail of Lead but the more they add to the game the more they get out.  They also have the ability to make minor additions alterations to the powers based on stunting.  It's would be perfectly fine to describe Haymaker as a powerful Axe Kick for example.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
SAW
Member

Posts: 35


« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 05:46:55 PM »

I would recommend you check out the Wushu RPG. It is very similar to what you have going on--a wire-fighting combat system that gives bonuses for detailed narration.
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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 05:56:20 PM »

I would recommend you check out the Wushu RPG. It is very similar to what you have going on--a wire-fighting combat system that gives bonuses for detailed narration.

Thanks for the tip.  I'll look it up!
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2010, 07:05:09 PM »

Mobius,

Your system appears easy to understand, fast-paced, and vivid.  Can you present us with a combat example so that we can get a feel of the narrative and mechanical aesthetics?
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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2010, 09:29:51 PM »

Mobius,

Your system appears easy to understand, fast-paced, and vivid.  Can you present us with a combat example so that we can get a feel of the narrative and mechanical aesthetics?

I'd be happy to.

David Tiberian an H-sec* agent is walking down a dark alley one rainy night when the GM asks his player to make an Awareness or Perception roll.  Knowing that cannot be good the player thinks for a second and comes up with the following stunt.

"Something does not feel quite right so I stop wait for a flash of lightning to drive back the shadows."  The GM decides that is worth one die so David's player rolls 6 dice (5 for hisAwareness plus one for the stunt) with a difficulty of 6 (10 - 4, his Perception).  He gets three successes so the GM tells him that as he blinks away the white afterimages from the lightning  sees the shadows of three men darting out of a small side alley about 15 meters ahead.  David pulls his gun, and auto-pistol, and holds it to his side concealing it in the folds of his trench coat.

David Tiberian:
Strength: 3 [7]
Constitution: 4 [6]
Dexterity: 5 [5]
Perception: 4 [6]
Intelligence: 3 [7]
Willpower: 4 [6]
Presence: 2 [8]
(Target numbers set by the attribute are in [])

Relevant Skills (Attribute 1/Attribute 2)
Firearms: 6 (Dex/Per)
Dodge: 5 (Dex/-)
Martial Arts: 4 (Dex/Str)
Awareness: 5 (Per/-)
Computer, Wired: 5 (Int/-)
Persuasion 4 (Pre/-)

Relevant Gear
Auto Pistol:  Accuracy: +1, Damage: 6L(Per), Range: 5/15/30/50
                      Recoil: 3, Standard Clip:12 rounds
Heavy Armor Weave:  12-1[0]
Trench coat with a full, if wrinkled, suit.
High End Cyber-modem: With advanced Data Wards, multitasking, and surveillance/anti-surveillance programs.

Counters:
I'm not going to list them all but David would have 29 Defensive Counters (11 from Firearms, 10 from Dodge, and 8 from Martial Arts) and 15 Offensive Counters (6 from Firearms, 5 from Dodge, and 4 from Martial Arts).

Health Levels:
Non-Lethal: 4 -> 4 (1 die wound penalty, Stun Roll) -> 4 (2 dice wound penalty, K.O. Roll)
Lethal: 4 (1 die wound penalty, Stun Roll)  -> 4 (2 dice wound penalty, Stun Roll) -> 4 (3 dice wound penalty, K.O. Roll) -> [Overflow]

He also makes a quick mental list of people who might want him dead and writes it to a text file through his cyber-modem and then sets it to record what he sees and hears in the next few minutes.  If his heart stops it will automatically forward the files to command as well as a few friends he's made along the way.

Thinking for a second he decides to do a sweep of the local Wired paying particular attention to any time-stamp anomalies that could indicate a hacker about.  The GM decides that too is a 1 die stunt so he rolls 9 dice (5 for his computer skill, 1 for the stunt, and 3 more for his surveillance package) against a difficulty of 7 (set by his intelligence).  He rolls 5 successes and the GM informs him that he sees nothing out of the ordinary although there is a camera in the alley ahead he could  try hacking into to get a better view.

Never much for computer's Davids player decides take a quick look around for cover instead and the GM informs him that there is a large rusty metal dumpster about 3 meters ahead.

David makes a break for it as his three assailants step out of the shadows and the GM calls for initiative rolls.

The Attackers: Local muscle 2 are normals (not credible threats on their own and do not use abbreviated stats) and one killer for higher.   

Normals/Thugs:
Strength: 4 [6]
Constitution: 4 [6]
Dexterity: 3 [7]
Perception: 3 [7]
Intelligence: 3 [7]
Willpower: 3 [7]
Presence: 3 [7]

Relevant Skills (Attribute 1/Attribute 2)
Brawl: 3 (Dex/Str)
Firearms: 3 (Dex/Per)
Dodge: 3 (Dex/-)

Relevant Gear
Auto Pistol:  Accuracy: +1, Damage: 6L(Per), Range: 5/15/30/50
                      Recoil: 3, Standard Clip:12 rounds
Medium Armor Weave:  10-1[0]
Leather Jacket with jeans and t-shirt.

Counters: To keep the GM's paperwork manageable normals to not have a full set of counters.  Instead they have 1 or 2 Defensive Counters they can use without limit and rarely an Offensive Counter.

Block
Melee Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Brawl [Str].  Each success reduces the damage done by the triggering attack one level.  Blocking a non-lethal melee weapon imposes a 1 die penalty.  Blocking a lethal weapon takes a 2 dice penalty.

Street Tough
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter, Persistent, Recoverable
Effect: Convert the damage of the triggering attack from lethal to non-lethal.  Until the beginning of your next round all non-lethal attacks, including the triggering attack, do one less level of damage.

Health Levels: Normals have fewer health levels then full characters.
Non-lethal: 4 (1 die penalty, Stun Check)
Lethal: 4 (1 die penalty, K.O. Check) -> 4 (Auto K.O.) -> [Overflow]

The Killer:
Strength: 4 [6]
Constitution: 3 [7]
Dexterity: 4 [6]
Perception: 4 [6]
Intelligence: 3 [7]
Willpower: 3 [7]
Presence: 4 [6]

Relevant Skills (Attribute 1/Attribute 2)
Brawl: 4 (Dex/Str)
Firearms: 4 (Dex/Per)
Dodge: 4 (Dex/-)

Relevant Gear
Sub-machine Gun: Accuracy: +1, Damage: 6L(Per), Range: 10/25/45/70
                                  Recoil: 3, Standard Clip: 36 rounds
Medium Armor Weave:  10-1[0]
Full Suit and Jacket.

Counters:
Again I am not going to list them all but he'd have 24 Defensive Counters and 12 Offensive Counters.

Health Levels:
Non-Lethal: 3 -> 3 (1 die wound penalty, Stun Roll) -> 3 (2 dice wound penalty, K.O. Roll)
Lethal: 3 (1 die wound penalty, Stun Roll)  -> 3 (2 dice wound penalty, Stun Roll) -> 3 (3 dice wound penalty, K.O. Roll) -> [Overflow]

Next: The Fight!

*H-sec is a paramilitary/law enforcement branch of the Federal Government formed in 3 A.B. out of fear of possible incursions by Hell into our world.  Since then their mandate has expanded to include Angelic, Nephilim, and sometimes Soul-Hacker related crimes as well.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2010, 12:38:35 AM »

Round 1

Initiative is a d10 + Dex + Highest Combat Skill.

So David rolls a d10 + 11 and gets a 17.
The thugs roll a d10 + 6 and get 11.
The Hired Killer rolls a d10 + 8 and gets a 16.

David goes first and decides to Dodge while he makes a break for cover.  His player describes the following stunt "Anticipating the crack of gunfire around me I do a diving roll for the end of the trash bin and come up in a thigh crouch, weapon ready."  The GM decides that is worth 2 dice so David's Player rolls 7 dice (5 from the Dodge skill + 2 for the stunt) against a target number of 5 and rolls poorly only getting gets 3 successes.  Until the beginning of David's next turn all attacks against him take a 3 dice penalty and had he used any he could recover 1 Defensive Counter.

Dodge: Recover 1 Defensive Counter and roll Dodge [Dex] after an attack has been declared but before the roll to hit.  Each success imposes a 1 die penalty to all attack rolls made against you until the beginning of your next turn.
             Special: To use dodge you must have a held action or give up your next available action.  You
                           may use Defensive Counters normally while dodging.

The Hired Killers goes next but the GM decides to have him delay so he can see what he's up against.  So the 2 thugs rush forward covering 5 meters and open fire each with a burst from their auto pistols.  The GM describes "the shots cracking past David as he dives Pop, Pop, Pop, and the ping against the dumpster as David rolls behind it."  The GM gives himself a 2 dice for the stunt.

Burst Fire: Shoot the target with a +1 dice bonus to accuracy and damage.  This attack takes 3 rounds.
                    Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used.

Their attack rolls are:
3 (Skill) + 1 (The weapons accuracy) + 2 (stunt) + 1 (Burst Fire) - 3 (David's Dodge) - 1 (range) - 2 (effective cover) = 1 die with a difficulty of 7 (set by their Dexterity).

Both roll with one failing and the other rolling a 10 and getting two successes.  So the first attack misses and the second will hit unless David uses a Defensive Counter.  David's player decides to use Weave and describes himself "ducking back behind the dumpster just as one of the bullets hits where my head was a second before."  There is no roll to Weave so he does not get a stunt bonus but it two successes from the attack roll are negated and all further ranged attacks suffer an additional 1 die penalty until the beginning of David's next turn.

Weave
Ranged Defensive Counter, Persistent, Recoverable
Effect: Remove 2 success from the triggering attack roll.  Until the beginning of your next turn all ranged attacks suffer a 1 dice penalty to hit you.

The Hired Killer now goes and advances behind his help laying down a long burst from his Sub-machine Gun.  The GM stunts saying "David's pinned by the earlier shoots and he takes the opportunity to open up with a long burst that cuts lights up the alley."  The GM decides that worth 1 die and rolls to hit.

His attack roll is:
4 (skill) + 1 (accuracy) + 1 (stunt) + 2 (long burst) -  3 (David's Dodge) - 1 (Weave) - 2 (effective cover) = 2 dice vs a target number of 6 (again set by Dex).

The GM rolls and gets one success.

David's player is tired of taking fire so he declares he is going to use Hand-Eye Coordination.  "I figure he's going to try something like that so I wait for him to get line of sight on me then I hit the asphalt landing in a dirty mud puddle and line up a quick shot at him".  The GM gives David's player 2 dice for the stunt.

Hand-Eye Coordination
Ranged Defensive Counter
Effect: Duck the triggering attack.  After that attack is fully resolved Shoot the triggering attacker with a 3 dice penalty to accuracy.

Duck removes damage from the triggering attack so the GM adds up the damage dice: 6 (base) + 1 (successes on the attack roll) + 2 (long burst) for a total of 9 dice.

This is less then the Penetration Resistance of David's armor (12) so the damage is converted to non-lethal.  The GM rolls 9 dice with a target number of 6 (set by the killer's perception) and gets 5 successes.

David's armor removes 1 leaving 4.  David now rolls for his defensive counter Duck. He rolls 8 dice (skill plus stunt) vs a target number of 6 and get 5 successes.  The attack grazes his armor weave trench coat but does not damage.

Duck
Ranged Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Firearms [Per].  Remove 1 level of damage from the triggering attack  for each success rolled.

Knowing that David is a good shoot the GM decides to have his Killer use an Offensive Counter, Snap Shot.  Because David's counter was not an interrupt this is resolved first.  "Before you can get off your shot he drops his aim and fires off a round at you."  Again he gives the killer 1 die for the stunt.

His attack roll is:
4 (skill) + 1 (accuracy) + 1 (stunt) - 3 (snap shot penalty) - 3 (David's Dodge) - 1 (Weave) - 2 (effective cover) = 0 dice, so the attack automatically misses.

David gets to resolve the attack granted by Hand-Eye Coordination now. 

His attack roll is:
6 (skill) + 1 (accuracy) +2 (stunt) -3 (Hand-Eye Coordination penalty) -1 (range) = 5 dice with a target number of 5.  David's player rolls and gets 4 successes.

The GM decides to have his Killer use Evasion "his eyes go wide and you see fear in them as he looks down the barrel of your gun.  He steps sideways and does a half spin as you fire."  The GM gives himself 2 dice so he rolls 6 dice with a target number of 6 and gets 3 successes.

Evasion
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter
Effect: Roll Dodge [Dex].  Each success removes 1 success from the triggering attack roll. If the attack hits each success also removes 1 die of damage.

David's shot barely hits doing 4 dice of damage. (6 +1 for the success - 3 for evasion).  This is less then Penetration Resistance of the Killer's armor (which is 10) so it becomes non-lethal. 

David's player rolls 4 dice with a difficulty of 6 (set by David's Perception) and gets 3 successes. 

The Killer's armor removes 1 of those so he takes 2 levels of non-lethal damage.  The GM makes that down but it is not enough to force a Stun Check.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2010, 12:39:25 AM »

Round 2

Again David goes first. 

He decides to Double Tap one of the thugs.  "I roll to my side and put two rounds into the nearest attackers chest."  The GM gives him 1 die for the stunt.

His attack roll is:
6 (skill) + 1 (accuracy) +1 (stunt) -1 (Double Tap penalty) -1 (range) = 6 dice with a target number of 5.  Double Tap allows David to make two attacks against the same target, the first gets 3 successes the second 5.

Double Tap: Make two attack rolls against your target as if you were Shooting, each with a 1 die penalty to accuracy.  Both attacks are resolved simultaneously. Any bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack and your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks.  After your targets Defensive Counter is resolved you may only use one Offensive Counter which also takes a 1 die penalty to accuracy.
                     Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used.

The first shot does 9 dice of damage which is less then the thug' armor's penetration resistance so it becomes non-lethal.  David's player rolls against a target number of 6 and gets 5 successes.

The thugs armor removes 1 of those leaving 4.  The GM has him use Street Tough which takes off another level of damage leaving 3. 

The Thug must now make a Stun check which is a Willpower check. The GM rolls 2 dice (his Willpower with a 1 die penalty for the injury) vs a target number of 7 and gets 1 success, he passes and is not stunned by the first shot.

The second shot does 11 dice of damage which is more then the Thugs armor penetration so it stays lethal damage.   David's player rolls against a target number of 6 and gets 6 successes.

The thugs armor removes 1 of those leaving 5.  The GM again has him use Street Tough converting it to non-lethal and taking off another level of damage leaving 4.

This shot takes the last level of non-lethal damage the thug has so 3 stage up to lethal damage.  Now he must make a K.O. check which is again a Willpower Check.  The GM rolls 2 dice (his Willpower with a 1 die penalty for the injury.  Only the highest injury penalty applies) vs a target number of 7 and gets no successes.  The thug falls unconscious and is bleeding from a small hole in his chest but with medical attention will probably live.

David's player wants to end this fight quickly so he decides to take another shot at the killer using Hail of Lead.  Still prone on the ground he decides to keep it simple and stunts " I adjust my aim and fire a rapid burst at the guy with the sub-machine gun."  The GM gives him 1 die for the stunt.

His attack roll is:
6 (skill) + 1 (accuracy) +1 (stunt) +1 (Burst) -1 (range) = 8 dice with a target number of 5.  David's player rolls and gets 6 successes.

The only Offensive Counters David has used are not Recoverable so he cannot get any of them back this fight.

Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter
Effect: Recover 1 Offensive Counter and make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
            Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
                          of the weapon used.

Knowing that David has a lot more offensive counters and not wanting his guy to go down without a fight the GM has his killer use Defensive Roll.  "He continues the spin he made to avoid your last attack and rolls behind the other end of the dumpster out of your line of sight."  The GM decides this is a 1 die stunt.  David still gets to make the damage roll but he'll lose line of sight on the killer after that.

David's attack does 13 dice of damage (6 base + 6 successes +1 burst) against a target number of 6.  Again this is more then the killer's armor's penetration resistance so it is lethal.

David's player rolls and gets 7 successes, ouch!  The killer's armor removes 1 leaving 6 levels of lethal damage.  That forces him to make a stun roll at a 2 dice penalty.  The GM rolls 1 die (3 for his Willpower -2 for the wound) and fails, he is stunned and loses his next turn.

David's player decides to end his turn on a high note so it is the remaining thugs turn.

The GM has him close 5 of the remaining 8 meters with his free move and then has him Bull Rush David.  He describes the thugs "desperate charge to close the distance and keep David from firing again."  The GM gives himself 1 die for the stunt and rolls to hit.

Bull Rush: Accuracy: +0, Damage: 4[Str]
                   Special: Before making the attack you may move up to your speed in a straight line.  If
                                 Bull Rush hits you and the target make an opposed Str check, the loser is knocked                         
                                 prone.  You must move at least one inch in order to Bull Rush.  You may only Bull
                                 Rush once per turn.   

His attack roll is:
3 (skill) + 1 (stunt) +2 (David is prone against a melee attacker) = 6 dice vs a target number of 7 (set by his Dexterity).  The GM rolls and gets 3 successes.

The GM then rolls damage:
7 Dice with a target number of 6 (set by Strength), getting 4 successes.  Because this starts as non-lethal damage no armor check is needed.

Davis armor removes 1 of those successes leaving 3.

David cannot use a ranged counter against a melee attack so his player decides to Martial Block.  "I cross my arms and ex-hail before he lands to keep the wind from being knocked out of me."  The GM decides that is a nice detail and gives David 2 dice.

David rolls 7 dice (5 from his MA skill and 2 from the stunt) with a target number of 5 and gets 4 successes which is enough to negate the remaining damage.

Martial Block
Melee Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Martial Arts [Dex].  Each success reduces the damage done by the triggering attack one level.  Blocking a non-lethal melee weapon imposes a 1 die penalty.  Blocking a lethal weapon takes a 2 dice penalty.

Normally there would be an opposed Strength check as part of Bull Rush but the GM rules that because David was already prone the thug automatically drops prone too as he basically threw himself at David.

The Killer spends his turn recovering from stun.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2010, 12:40:07 AM »

Round 3

David Goes first and uses the Martial Arts maneuver Flip to get up without using his turn. "I shove the big oaf off of me and using one hand push myself backwards into a half roll before jumping up."  The GM awards him a 2 die stunt so he rolls 6 dice with a target number of 5 and gets 3 successes.  David gets up and will take a no penalty. 

Flip: Roll Martial Arts [Dex].  If you get at least one success you may stand up from prone and act this turn with a 2 dice penalty to any attack rolls you make until the beginning of your next turn.  For each additional success rolled this penalty is reduced by 1.

David goes after the thug with a Double-Kick "I kick him one in the face and then stomp on him."  The GM awards 1 die for the stunt and David gets to make 2 attacks.

Double-Kick: Make a Snap Kick attack against your target.  After that attack is fully resolved make a Side Kick attack against the same target.
                        Special: Until the start of your next turn all attack rolls against you gain a 2 dice bonus

Snap Kick: Accuracy: +1, Damage: 4 [Str]
Side Kick: Accuracy: +0, Damage: 6 [Str]

David rolls 6 dice for the first and 5 for the second each with a target number of 5 getting 3 successes on both of them.

The snap kick to the face does 7 dice of non-lethal damage and the side kick/stomp does 9.  Both are against a target number of 7 set by David's strength.  David rolls and gets 3 successes on the snap kick's damage roll and 5 on the side kick's.

The thugs armor reduces the damage of each attack by 1 level leaving 2 and 4 respectively.

The GM has him Block both attacks "He throws his arms over his face to stop your first viscous blow and then rolls to his right."  The GM decides that is a 1 die stunt and rolls 4 dice (3 from Brawl and 1 from the stunt) against a target number of 6.

He rolls 3 successes against the first attack leaving no damage and 2 vs the second so the thug takes 2 levels of non-lethal damage.  The thug rolls 2 dice for his stun check against a difficulty of 7 and makes it so he is not stunned.

Block
Melee Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Brawl [Str].  Each success reduces the damage done by the triggering attack one level.  Blocking a non-lethal melee weapon imposes a 1 die penalty.  Blocking a lethal weapon takes a 2 dice penalty.

Davis decides to use the Offensive Counter Cobra Strike so his next melee attack will gain a damage bonus against this guy.

Cobra Strike
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Your next successful melee attack against the triggering target gains a 3 dice bonus to damage.

The GM has the thug spend his turn getting to his feet.

Having recovered from being stunned the killer steps around the side of the dumpster and opens up with another Burst.  "Blood dripping from the side of his mouth and staining his jacket he curses at you as he fires."  The GM gives himself 1 die for the stunt.

Before the attack is rolled David decides to Dodge.  "I leap up and alternating between the dumpster and the alley wall jump above his line of fire."  The GM thinks that is cool and gives David 2 dice for the stunt.  David also recovers one of the Defensive Counters he used, Martial Block.

Dodge: Recover 1 Defensive Counter and roll Dodge [Dex] after an attack has been declared but before the roll to hit.  Each success imposes a 1 die penalty to all attack rolls made against you until the beginning of your next turn.
             Special: To use dodge you must have a held action or give up your next available action.  You
                           may use Defensive Counters normally while dodging.

David's player rolls 7 dice with a target number of 5 and gets 4 successes.

The Killer's attack roll is now:
4 (skill) + 1 (stunt) + 2 (long burst) - 4 (dodge) - 2 (wound penalty) = 1 die with a target number of 6.  The GM rolls and misses.

Even though the attack missed David decides to use Face Off which has the Interrupt counter so it is resolved before the killer has a chance to use an Offensive Counter.

Face Off
Melee/Ranged Defensive Counter,  Interrupt
Effect: Roll Firearms [Per].  Remove 1 level of damage from the triggering attack  for each success rolled. Before he is allowed to use an Offensive Counter Aim at the triggering target and Ready a Head Shot.  Make a contested Dex roll with the triggering target.  If you lose he may immediately Ready an attack against you.
            Special: You may only use Stand Off once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
                          of the weapon used.

Because the attack missed David does not have to roll to reduce the damage so he simply Aims and readies a Head Shot.

Head Shot: Shoot the target.  Each success on the attack roll increases the damage rolled by two dice instead of the usual one.
                    Special: You must be Aiming at your target and able to handle the recoil of the weapon
                                  used.  The target must have some identifiable vulnerable point to use this attack.

Davis and the Killer each roll Dexterity.  David rolls 5 dice with a target number of 5.  The killer rolls 2 dice (4 - 2 for his wound) against a target number of 6.  Not surprisingly David rolls more successes and the Killer is not able to ready an attack in response.

Instead of immediately taking the shoot David gives them a chance to surrender "Drop your weapons and I let you live.  Keep fighting and die."

The GM decides this is a Persuasion check.  He gives Davis 1 die for the stunt and a 2 dice bonus for the situation.  David rolls 7 dice against a target number of 8 getting 3 successes.

Both of his opponents roll their Willpower reduced by their respective wound penalties.  The killer rolls 1 dice vs a target number of 7 and fails so he drops his gun.  The thug rolls 2 dice also vs a target number of 7 and manages to get 3 successes.  The GM has him declare "I'll never go back to jail!".
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2010, 12:40:43 AM »

Round 4
Unfortunately for him it is David's turn so "without taking my eyes or gun off of the man in front of me I backhand this idiot."

David's player stunts a punch as a backhand and gets a die for it.  The GM also decides he can maintain his readied action to shoot the Killer.

Punch: Accuracy: +2, Damage: 3[Str]

David rolls 7 dice with a target number of 5 and gets 5 successes.  Seeing that the fight is over the GM just has his last man Block without a stunt. 

David would normally roll 8 dice damage against a target number of 7 but Cobra Strike adds 3 more for a total of 11.  Rolling he gets 6 successes. 

The thug's armor removes one of those and the he rolls 2 dice with a target number of 6 to Block  and gets 2 successes.

David does 3  level of non-lethal damage to the thug who fails his K.O. check and the fight is over.

Turning to his prisoner David smiles behind the gun still pointed at his head "Lets talk".
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
Ar Kayon
Member

Posts: 190


« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2010, 07:35:23 AM »

quote]Special: You may only use Stand Off once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used. Quote
Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used.
Do you see a pattern of redundancy here?
Quote
Double Tap: Make two attack rolls against your target as if you were Shooting, each with a 1 die penalty to accuracy. Both attacks are resolved simultaneously. Any bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack and your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks. After your targets Defensive Counter is resolved you may only use one Offensive Counter which also takes a 1 die penalty to accuracy.
Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used.
The technique is cool, but is not described elegantly.  Keep refining your core rules so you can pare down all of your counters into easily-digestible formats.
Quote
Block
Melee Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Brawl [Str]. Each success reduces the damage done by the triggering attack one level. Blocking a non-lethal melee weapon imposes a 1 die penalty. Blocking a lethal weapon takes a 2 dice penalty.
Perfect.  Clean and easy to memorize.

Instead of this:
Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter
Effect: Recover 1 Offensive Counter and make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used.
Try this:
Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter / recoverable
Effect: Make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.Quote
Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used.
Do you see a pattern of redundancy here?
Quote
Double Tap: Make two attack rolls against your target as if you were Shooting, each with a 1 die penalty to accuracy. Both attacks are resolved simultaneously. Any bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack and your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks. After your targets Defensive Counter is resolved you may only use one Offensive Counter which also takes a 1 die penalty to accuracy.
Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used.
The technique is cool, but is not described elegantly.  Keep refining your core rules so you can pare down all of your counters into easily-digestible formats.
Quote
Block
Melee Defensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: Roll Brawl [Str]. Each success reduces the damage done by the triggering attack one level. Blocking a non-lethal melee weapon imposes a 1 die penalty. Blocking a lethal weapon takes a 2 dice penalty.
Perfect.  Clean and easy to memorize.

Instead of this:
Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter
Effect: Recover 1 Offensive Counter and make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used.
Try this:
Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter / recoverable
Effect: Make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2010, 08:35:30 AM »

Thank you for taking the time to read over all that and give feedback, I really appreciate it.

Some thoughts on what you said.

Quote
1.  The amount of dice rolling in the above combat example is intimidating.  Even though dice pools are tempting because they offer a simple way to increase the complexity of any given system, in my opinion, they are cumbersome and inefficient.  I honestly believe you can pull off the same results for your system using a single d20 roll instead (using degree of success to model # of successes).  Or you can meet in the middle with the 3d6, which offers a sexy bell-curve.

An early attempt at building a system for this game used a d20 but I was not happy with the results and abandoned it.  While multiple dice are more complex they also allow me to model certain things in a much cleaner way then I was able to do under using a single die, especially some of the things I want to do with the supernatural systems.

Quote
Quote
Quote
Quote
Double Tap: Make two attack rolls against your target as if you were Shooting, each with a 1 die penalty to accuracy. Both attacks are resolved simultaneously. Any bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack and your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks. After your targets Defensive Counter is resolved you may only use one Offensive Counter which also takes a 1 die penalty to accuracy.
Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used.

The technique is cool, but is not described elegantly.  Keep refining your core rules so you can pare down all of your counters into easily-digestible formats.

Agreed. This is very much a first draft.

Quote
Instead of this:

Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter
Effect: Recover 1 Offensive Counter and make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
Special: You may only use Hail of Lead once per turn and you must be able to handle the recoil
of the weapon used.

Try this:

Quote
Hail of Lead
Ranged Offensive Counter / recoverable
Effect: Make an attack against any valid target using any basic Firearms attack you know.
That would not work because Hail of Lead is not recoverable (almost none of the extra attacks are).  Instead it allows you to recover one offensive counter that has the recoverable key word.

I may try and come up with a keyword system for that but I suspect it would end up being more complex then it is worth.  Only using a given extra attack once per turn was a late addition to the rules to deal with the issue you bring up next.  As you suggest I'll likely try and make a global rule about that.

Quote
2.  Conservation of combat time seems off.  What I mean is that in some parts of your combat example, it seems as if the two thugs are in suspended animation while the PC and Killer are going back and forth with their exchange.  I think it would be best to re-examine your counter rules and impose an absolute limit on how many you may use per round.  At some point, a combatant is going to get overwhelmed with so many things happening at once that an attack made against him is going to be unopposed.

This is something I am going to be watching very closely in my play tests. I am not very concerned about the thugs standing around, as they exist mostly to eat up resources and make the players look cool.

The main characters and NPCs getting overwhelmed is a concern although that is why persistent counters exist and some a very potent.

Some examples:
Street Defense
Melee Defensive Counter, Persistent
Effect: Block the triggering attack.  Until the beginning of your next turn you may choose to Block any valid attack.  This counts as your Defensive Counter for the attack.

Spinning Dodge
Ranged Defensive Counter, Persistent
Effect: Duck the triggering attack and recover 1 Defensive Counter.  Until the end of your next turn all ranged attacks made against you suffer a 1 die penalty to their to hit roll for each success you rolled and all melee attacks suffer a 2 dice penalty.
            Special: On your next turn if you attack using Shoot you may maintain this counter until the end
                          of your following turn.

Also Dodge is a basic maneuver (in the Dodge skill, go figure) not a counter.  Early in the fight David combined Dodge with a persistent counter to make himself very hard to hit and relied on defensive counters that allowed him to attack for offense. I expect that will be a common tactic when people are outnumbered.

Again thank you for taking the time to post.  Typing up that example was very valuable and I'll look closely at some of the thing you suggested.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
dindenver
Member

Posts: 928

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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2010, 11:15:03 AM »

mobius,
  I got why some moves said "Must be able to handle recoil" and others did not.
  I was concerned about rolling for DMG, but I see why it is done.
  the one part that confused me was, it seems like David is able to do multiple attacks per turn without penalty. Particularly in Round 2, he does double-Tap and Hail of Lead. The rules aren't clear to me when you can or can't do multiple attacks like that.
  Other than that, it is a good system that has a real CCG feel without being bogged down by cards.
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Dave M
Author of Legends of Lanasia RPG (Still in beta)
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Mobius
Member

Posts: 46


« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2010, 11:47:24 AM »

mobius,
  I got why some moves said "Must be able to handle recoil" and others did not.
  I was concerned about rolling for DMG, but I see why it is done.
  the one part that confused me was, it seems like David is able to do multiple attacks per turn without penalty. Particularly in Round 2, he does double-Tap and Hail of Lead. The rules aren't clear to me when you can or can't do multiple attacks like that.
  Other than that, it is a good system that has a real CCG feel without being bogged down by cards.


Hi Dave,

Thank you for taking the time to review my system.  I'm glad you like it.

To answer your question he's making one basic attack, Double-Tap, and then using an Offensive Counter.  Although looking back his Hail of Lead attack should have taken a 1 die penalty due to him using Double Tap before it.

At it's core the system plays like this:
Basic Attack --> Defensive Counter --> Offensive Counter

If the Offensive Counter is an extra attack then the target has the option of using another Defensive Counter and the attacker has the option of using another Offensive Counter. 

The cycle stops when either:
a) The attacker has no more valid Offensive Counters or target.
b) The attacker decides to stop.
c) The defender uses a Defensive Counter with the Interrupt keyword and the attacker (his target) uses a Defensive Counter.

While the chain can go on for a while, how long is something I am going to look at very closely in play tests, almost no Offensive Counters that include an attack are recoverable so they are a limited resource.

I hope that clears things up.  If not please let me know--its always easier to picture these things in my head then convey then in writing.
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Mobius a.k.a Charles
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