[Babel] 2nd try, system theory and numbers light

[Ar Kayon]

1.  What's the difference between a basic maneuver and a counter?  When can these things be used and when can they not be used?  Can a counter be used in lieu of a basic maneuver?

2.  Defensive counters make sense, but offensive counters sounds vague.  Would "follow-up" be a more appropriate term for these special offensive maneuvers?

3.  There are some counters in there that appear passive, like street tough.  Do you think all passive counters could be separated into a new category, such as "abilities"?

The reason why I'm stressing the subject of categorizing so much is because with well-defined categories, you can have clean-cut rules that apply to every object within the category.  This means that you do not have to reiterate rules and you do not have to incorporate "special" notes that make those objects appear as mechanics independent of the core system.  Therefore, players and game masters will be able to retain those rules more effectively so that they need not reference the manual as much.

Basically, what I'm trying to do is give you some insight on the streamlining process.  The following is an example of a conceptual model that, although complex, would do away with a lot of fluff in the actual maneuver descriptions, thus having a positive net streamlining effect:

Turn Maneuvers
   Attack
      "Opening"
      "Slam"
      "Punch"
      "Kick"
   Defend (Passive)
      "Dodge"
Response Maneuvers - You may only use x maneuvers per round (conservation of combat time).
   Follow-ups -  Can only be used after your own triggering attack.
         "Double Tap"
         "Double Kick"
         Throws or takedowns after grabs can be put here too.
         Also: sustained burst fire
   Defend (Active) - Can only be used after an opponent's triggering attack.
      Standard
         "Back Flip"
         "Block"
         "Side Step"
         "Weave"
         "Duck"
         "Evasion"
         "Martial Block"
Free Counters - Can only be used after a successful Defend (Active).  There are no use limitations.
      "Riposte"
      "Face Off"
      "Hand-Eye Coordination"
Abilities - Does not need to be bound by time conservation rules, although may have a finite number of uses per fight or be based on a contingency (such as head shot).
   "Street Tough"
   "Cobra Strike"
   "Head Shot"
   "Nerve Strike"

Result: the "recoverable" keyword can probably be eliminated completely, including rules that decide when the chain actually stops (it will be immediately apparent).  Also, the "suspended animation" effect has been addressed.

[Ar Kayon]

Error: "face off" would probably be an active defensive response instead, since no defense precedes it.

[Mobius]

Hello again Ar Kayon,

Thank you for the suggestions.  Some thoughts.

1.  What's the difference between a basic maneuver and a counter?  When can these things be used and when can they not be used?  Can a counter be used in lieu of a basic maneuver?

Basic attacks are actions that you can only do on your turn and that take your action for that turn.  Their is no limit to the number of times they may be used in a fight.  In addition you automatically receive them as you rank up a given combat skill.

Basic maneuvers are similar to basic attacks in that they can be used any number of times in a combat and you get them automatically at the given skill ranks.  They are never attacks and may or may not take an action or be restricted to your turn.

Counters are also gained by increasing your combat skills but differ from basic attacks and maneuvers in the following ways:
1) They are limited, each time you use one it is expended for the fight.
2) You choose which counters you want to take with each rank of your skill.  You get 2 Defensive Counters and 1 Offensive Counter per rank of skill at ranks 1-5.  For rank 6+ you gain 2 Counters of any type.
3) Counters can only be used in response to something. Either an attack made against you or an attack you made.

Counter cannot be used in lieu of a basic maneuver.

2.  Defensive counters make sense, but offensive counters sounds vague.  Would "follow-up" be a more appropriate term for these special offensive maneuvers?

I agree that Offensive Counter sounds vague.  Follow-up is certainly more reflective of what they actually are so yes I think I'll make that change.  Thank you.

3.  There are some counters in there that appear passive, like street tough.  Do you think all passive counters could be separated into a new category, such as "abilities"?

I'll have to think about this some.  Limiting the number of Defensive Counters a character can use per turn, while realistic, has the potential to be very dangerous and heavily encourages focused fire which is not necessarily in keeping with the sorts of shows/movies I'm trying to simulate. 

Limiting the amount of Follow-ups is something I am/have considered and would likely be my first step. At one point I was going to limit them to one Follow-up per basic attack but that makes multi-attacks like Double Kick much more powerful. 

I suppose I could limit all characters to no more then X attacks each turn.  So if the limit was say 4 and you spent 2 of them doing a Double Kick as your basic attack you could only make 2 more through counters/follow-ups.

The down side of that is it is one more value players and the GM must track throughout the turn.

Adding an abilities category would require a lot of restructuring to how these powers are gained.  It may be worth doing but I'll want to get a few play tests down with the current system first to see if it would be beneficial.

[brianbloodaxe]

Two thoughts I have had about this:

- Working back through a chain of attacks, counters, follow ups, defencive riposts, attacker defences, etc might get confusing and there is nothing more annoying than working through five actions only to forget the details of the initial attack. You might be better off providing the players with cards for each of their abilities so that they can move the cards into a central play area giving a visual representation of the combat sequence. The cards can also be a valuable reference for the different attacks. (I realise that D&D4and WFRP3 may already do something like this but I'm not sure as I have played neither - I am simply remembering chains of instants and interrupts twelve years ago in Magic: The Gathering)

- The basic dice mechanic is roll as many dice as you have points in the skill and each that rolls over a target (determined by deducting your stat from 10) is a success. Why not remove a level of complexity and have the dice pass if they roll equal to or less than your stat? You would need to increase all stats by 1 during character gen but that shouldn't be a problem.

[Mobius]

Two thoughts I have had about this:

- Working back through a chain of attacks, counters, follow ups, defencive riposts, attacker defences, etc might get confusing and there is nothing more annoying than working through five actions only to forget the details of the initial attack. You might be better off providing the players with cards for each of their abilities so that they can move the cards into a central play area giving a visual representation of the combat sequence. The cards can also be a valuable reference for the different attacks. (I realise that D&D4and WFRP3 may already do something like this but I'm not sure as I have played neither - I am simply remembering chains of instants and interrupts twelve years ago in Magic: The Gathering)

I do visualize this system almost like playing cards.  Many of the powers are resolved immediately so hopefully that will reduce the need to work back through things.  Having said that I can see some spots in my example where I forgot to add a modifier provided by a counter so some sort of system of tracking that may be needed. Or perhaps as Ar Kayon  suggests a simplification of the system.

- The basic dice mechanic is roll as many dice as you have points in the skill and each that rolls over a target (determined by deducting your stat from 10) is a success. Why not remove a level of complexity and have the dice pass if they roll equal to or less than your stat? You would need to increase all stats by 1 during character gen but that shouldn't be a problem.

I'd not thought of that, I guess because I am used to a high roll being good.  I wonder which is harder for most players; to use a derived number which needs to be calculated once or adjust to wanting to roll a 1.  Anyone else have an opinion on that?

[Mobius]

Oh and because I forgot to say it thank you for the feedback!  I really appreciate everyone's thoughts and time. 

[Mobius]

Going through my game with an eye towards simplifying the system one of the first things that jumped out at me is the number of  penalties and modifiers I gave a large number of abilities in order to balance them.  Right now they are very add hock but I'd like to standardize them into a few easy to remember status conditions.

This requires some minor changes in the abilities but overall I think it is worth it.

Right now I am thinking:
Bleeding: A character who is bleeding takes 1 level of irresistible damage at the start of his turn, after which he may make a Con check to stop the bleeding. He continues to bleeding until he heals at least one level of lethal damage, a successful Medical check is made on him, or he succeeds at the Con check.
Bleeding profusely: A character who is bleeding profusely takes 5 dice [7] of irresistible damage at the start of each turn. He continues to bleeding profusely until he heals at least one level of lethal damage or a successful Medical check is made on him at a 3 dice penalty.
Crippled  All rolls made while crippled take a 1 die penalty and all natural movement is reduced by 3 inches.
Exposed: All defensive counter rolls made while exposed take a 2 dice penalty.
Off Balance: All attack rolls made take a 2 dice accuracy penalty.
Slow:  Any Defensive Counter roll made against a slow attack gains a 1 die bonus.
Staggered: All rolls made while staggered take a 1 die penalty.
Vicious: Any stun or K.O. checks made as the result of a vicious attack take a 1 die penalty.

Another thing I want to do is standardize multiple attacks into two categories. 
Combined Attack: When you make a combined attack two or more attack rolls are resolved simultaneously.  All attacks made must be against the same target and  bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack. Your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks. You may only make one Follow-up to a combined attack regardless of the number of attack rolls you make.

Multiple Attack: When making multiple attacks each attack is fully resolved before moving on to the next.  You may only make a Follow-up to the last attack roll.

Some examples of what the changes would look like.

Double Tap: Make two attack rolls against your target as if you were Shooting, each with a 1 die penalty to accuracy.  Both attacks are resolved simultaneously. Any bonuses to damage or accuracy only applies to one attack and your target's Defensive Counter applies to both attacks.  After your targets Defensive Counter is resolved you may only use one Offensive Counter which also takes a 1 die penalty to accuracy.
                     Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used. 

Becomes

Double Tap: Shoot your target twice with a 1 die penalty to accuracy.  This is a Combined Attack.
                     Special: You must be able to handle the recoil of the weapon used. 

Double-Kick: Make a Snap Kick attack against your target.  After that attack is fully resolved make a Side Kick attack against the same target.
                        Special: Until the start of your next turn all attack rolls against you gain a 2 dice bonus

Becomes

Double-Kick: As a Multiple Attack make a Snap Kick followed by a Side Kick.  Using Double-Kick leaves you Exposed until the beginning of your next turn.

Crippling Wound
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: If the triggering attack hit and did at least one level of damage your target takes a 2 dice penalty to attack rolls and a 3 inch penalty to any movement until the end of his next turn.

Becomes

Crippling Wound
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect: If the triggering attack hit and did at least one level of damage your target is Crippled until the end of his next turn.

And

Bleeding Wound
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect:  If the triggering attack hit and did at least one level of lethal damage then at the beginning of your target's next turn he takes 1 level of irresistible lethal damage, after which he may make a Con check to stop the bleeding. He continues to take damage at the beginning of each turn until he heals at least one level of lethal damage, a successful Medical check is made on him, or he succeeds at the Con check.
             Special: The target must be able to bleed in some way for this counter to be effective.

Becomes:

Bleeding Wound
Melee Offensive Counter, Recoverable
Effect:  If the triggering attack hit and did at least one level of lethal damage the target is Bleeding.

Immunity to bleeding would then be handled in the creatures description.

Does anyone see a reason not make this update?

[Mobius]

Also does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement term for Multiple Attack?  I'm finding it awkward to work into ability descriptions.

[SAW]

Also does anyone have a suggestion for a replacement term for Multiple Attack?  I'm finding it awkward to work into ability descriptions.

Flurry?
Barrage?
Blitz?