Enlightenment (GGD Group Game Design)

[Mike Holmes]

The gm or whoever is framing the plot will benefit from having ready made hooks--as John suggested the Spiritual statement could be a sort of "kicker".

"Solving" a trait pair sounds very much like resolving a kicker. How about a monk takes a Macro-Descriptor, or Mini-Kicker, at each stage of development, which is resolved as the associated stat pair is resolved? Or something of that nature?

I agree that descriptions need to be incorporated such that all monks do not become too similar. Otehr skills can be learned at the monastary. Perhaps in training to learn about humility, a particular monk must serve in the kitchen. This would give him bonuses when figuring out how to use cooking. And relates the worldy skill to the spiritual side, thus reinforcing the lesson.

Anyone see what I'm getting at?

Mike

[Sylus Thane]

I have a question. If I created a character, we'll call him Kaethan, and He was formerly a soldier within an army and then truned to order to get away from his violent past how would this apply to things as they stand now? How would you show his skill with weaponry and knowleedge of defense when in a combative situation? Would his past come into play if he were unable to remain passive? Or would their be some other form of rules for true combat situations?

Just some questions that popped into my head.

Sylus

[Bob McNamee]

My preference is that he would have a crisis concerning trait pairs...(perhaps including the Worldly Spiritual trait)
for instance
Violence / Compassion
Action / Stillness
Bravery / Cowardice

based on which he wishes to try be succesfull at (modifying the roll based on his personal Facts for the traits)
then, narrate based upon the results of the roll(s)

I would want his former military training to come out as part of the narration. The way he approaches the situation. (like getting across a battlefield to tend the wounded)

A former cowardly scapegoat might roll the same "success" in the same situation, but how he appproaches getting to the other side of the battlefield may be a very different thing.

[talysman]

some good stuff in there about using mini-kickers and the like. I have some more thoughts about how to impliment the mini-kickers, how to handle advancement/chargen, and how to keep the scenes flowing...

so far, my description of trait changes has mentioned tally-marks. let me explain some more about how I imagine these being used. first, obviously, when a Passion is used, one of two things happens:

[list=1]
[*]it increases one point; or,
[*]it increases if one of the die rolls matches the current Passion score.
[/list:o]

either way, it's immediate. I think this is easier than waiting for a scene to end. option 2 is probably better, since it leaves a chance of acting against the principals of the monk's religious beliefs without being penalized, making it a little more tempting.

Virtue rolls, however, get a tally-mark next to them (or the player gets a token) whenever they are used (successful or not.) this means there is no immediate Virtue increase, but there is an immediate increase in something -- a currency.

per something Mike said in the previous thread, you would need to match your trait score with points of this currency in order to increase the Virtue. we have three options here, depending on whether we want Virtue improvement to start slow and speed up later, or start fast and slow down as the Virtue gets higher, or a mix of the two:

[list=1]
[*]start slow: neophytes must spend currency points equal to their Passion in order to lower the Passion (and increase the corresponding Virtue) one point; or,
[*]start fast:  neophytes must spend currency points equal to their Virtue in order to increase that Virtue(and lower the corresponding Passion) one point; or,
[*]hard on either end, easier in the middle: neophytes must spend currency points equal to the higher trait (Passion or Virtue) in order to reduce the Passion/increase the Virtue by one point.
[/list:o]

I'm leaning towards number three, although it looks a tiny bit more complicated, because I think it best reflects how most people think about self improvement: it's hard to start making a change, gets easier, but then gets harder again as you approach perfection.

what about the mentor? I said earlier that the neophytes can only spend the currency if the mentor approves. here is how I imagine the "exit interview":

[list=1]
[*]neophyte selects a trait for improvement: "master, I learned a lesson about Compassion and Violence while fulfilling my duties";
[*]mentor asks neophyte for a summary of the mission;
[*]neophyte summarizes each decision/action made: "I healed the children that were taken to the chapel in the village using herbs I had gathered";
[*]mentor asks about the outcome of each action and how the neophyte felt;
[*]if the mentor agrees the neophyte learned a lesson about Compassion and Violence, the neophyte spends the currency on reducing Violence;
[*] if the mentor disagrees, the neophyte loses the same amount of currency.
[/list:o]

we might as well call this currency "Lesson points" or "Lessons".

that's from the neophyte's viewpoint. but what about the mentor?

since mentors aren't "adventuring", the only way for them to continue on the path toward enlightenment is to lead the neophytes. every time a neophyte lowers a Passion, the mentor can lower one Passion as well. this gives the mentor a desire to see the neophyte improve.

but the mentor must also judge wisely: to encourage this, the mentor's player gets to keep any Lesson points "docked" from a neophyte who did poorly. the Lesson points, however, transform into Event points for the mentor's player; Event points can be spent on three things:

[*]adding one "grog" neophyte to the monastery; or,
[*]training one neophyte in a skill (like the KP duty Mike mentioned); or,
[*]introducing a dramatic change to a scene.
[/list:u]

each of these must be narrated as an event.

you can probably tell where I'm heading with this: rotating GM duties. each player has a mentor character and one neophyte (in normal play.) when it's one player's turn to be mentor, that player describes a mission for the neophytes. that player also gets a small number of Event points (two per neophyte on mission, maybe?) plus whateve other Event points that player may have accrued.

ok, this leads to questions about chargen. here's how I envision it:

[*]each player suggests one trait-pair important to the religion;
[*]players then design neophytes, selecting two trait-pairs from those suggested;
[*]one of these trait-pairs would be 5/1, the other would be 4/2 (Passion is higher, Virtue is lower;
[*]Worldly/Spiritual is also set at 5/1;
[*]players write four facts about their character: one for each trait-pair, one Worldly fact, and one Spiritual kicker;
[*]next, each player designs a mentor by taking three trait pairs, setting two at 0/6 and one at 4/2;
[*]set the mentor's Worldly/Spiritual trait scores at 3/3;
[*]write five facts for the mentor;
[*]name the characters and introduce them in the first session.
[/list:u]

for the first session, every player takes turns describing one fact about the monastery or the immediate surroundings (nothing further than three days walk from the monastery.) this could be a description of common labors, improvements made to the original abbey, adding a village nearby, describing events in the village or along the roads... when one person describes an event that sounds like the basis of a good mission, the other players chime in, selecting that mission (and selecting the player who thought of it as the mentor for that mission.)

players playing mentor cannot improve their own neophytes during a mission they are mentoring, although those neophytes can participate in the mission. also, when mentors add neophytes to the monastery, these are considered "grog neophytes", playable by anyone.

for true GM play, players opt to have one person as permanent mentor. it's otherwise handled the same: the GM position doesn't rotate. otherwise, the position must rotate: no player can be mentor twice in a row.

that's a rough sketch of the game as I see it right now.

[Emily Care]

Good sketch of the game, John.  Thanks for following through on your suggestion to write one up.  

Shall we continue in this manner, on this thread? Or pick something to firm up, like char gen, and begin a new one?

Some more thoughts:

Worldliness/Spirituality values seem like they should increase/decrease according to the rise and fall of trait pairs.  Perhaps, Worldliness could increase when any Passion hits it's maximum level. I'm not sure how to determine when Spirituality rises, since that is harder to arrange.  

When Spirituality=0, the character should probably leave the monastery, or go out of play.  And I still like the idea of a character with all it's Passions max'd becoming an antagonistic character somehow.  

Other skills can be learned at the monastary.

Don't know if this will work, but: If we allow additional statements to be written near trait pairs, these could reflect skills gained, lessons learned and be a sort of written narrative of the character's path.  I'd suggest that a statement of this type be written each time a Virtue is increased, and less frequently for the Passions, since it is easier and they are more likely to increase more often than the Virtues.  


Making the tally marks Lesson Points to get Virtues which become currency (Event points) used by the Mentors is an excellent idea.  Hoever, I have some concerns about limiting play to this economy.  Can we look carefully at dynamics of play this could create first?   Don't want the mentor characters to start "harvesting" from their neophyte charges. And I'd also like to avoid the game getting weighed down by too much accounting.  

Optional or rotating gm-ship.  Yes! I adore this game.

--Emily Care

[Bob McNamee]

Good Stuff!

I like the GM variable rules.
"Lesson points" are  a good term.
Are we still doing something pointwise that deteremines when a scene ends?

Monestary becomes a little like a franchise in Inspectres.
I wonder if the Monestary as a whole should have a gauge of how it is seen by the outside world (Meddlesome / Mediating)... probably not (or only in games with specific types of problems)

I'd say if this recent post looks good to everybody we should start splitting of posts to look at character creation etc.

[Emily Care]

Are we still doing something pointwise that deteremines when a scene ends?

The scene rating does this:

here's an idea on the way scenes could work: each scene has a single-digit rating (doesn't need to be higher than 5, and will be lower in most cases.) players narrate an action and suggest the two possible outcomes, as mentioned above. when the dice are rolled, the number of successes on a positive outcome are added to an accumulating "success pool", and the "negative successes" are added to the scene rating. when the success pool is greater than the scene rating, the scene is resolved; otherwise, the player must narrate why the action is successful but the scene isn't resolved.

repeat as necessary until scene rating is reduce to 0, ending the scene.

Is there a possibility that the scene rating will keep getting higher? If so, and even if not, it seems like a player should be able to direct their character to give up--flee the scene if necessary--though it wouldn't go over very well with their mentor, I imagine.

Monestary becomes a little like a franchise in Inspectres.
I wonder if the Monestary as a whole should have a gauge of how it is seen by the outside world (Meddlesome / Mediating)... probably not (or only in games with specific types of problems)

Driving up to Lumpley and Meguey's house tonight to hang out with them and go trick or treating with the kids, I started thinking about the monastery level Worldliness/Spirituality stats.  How do they increase?  What do they do? I had some ideas, but it's circituitous, so bear with me.

In char gen, say each player comes up with a trait pair of interest/importance to the monastery or the religion, and then the characters are developed using those trait pairs. In order to individuate the characters more, what if each got one of the ones important to the order, and one of their very own. It could overlap with someone else's, but even if it did, this would still allow for greater variation.  

Then, when during the course of play a character garnered enough Lesson points, and successfully presented her experiences to her mentor to be awarded and increase to her Virtue stat, if the trait pair was one of the trait pairs important to the order, then the monastery's Spirituality score would have a chance to increase, if it was one of her individual stats, it would increase her own Spirituality.

We could do a similar thing with Worldliness.

The monastery Worldliness/Spirituality stats would need to affect the lives of the neophytes in some noticeable way.  It could consist of a narrative allocation--the player whose character was responsible for raising it could narrate some positive change about the monastery. Or the W/S for the monastery could interact with the daily activities of the monks.  Determine scene ratings? ho-ho, maybe that's a way to go....

This would speak to the interaction with the outside world Bob is getting at above.  If a monastery has a high Worldliness, then the neophytes would have more difficult interactions with the outside world and have a harder time overcoming their own Worldliness. Scene ratings wouldn't necessarily advantage the neophyte's worldliness over their virtues, but tasks would take take longer to resolve, and so they would have more opportunities for temptation.

I can also see this sort of dynamic setting the stage for campaigns where monks are sent to clean up drastically worldly monasteries. :) The Internal Affairs of the order.

I'd say if this recent post looks good to everybody we should start splitting of posts to look at character creation etc.

I agree.

--Emily Care

[Bob McNamee]

I like that mix of personal - order advancement!

[contracycle]

This may not be totally appropriate, but I'd be inclined to think that the game should accumulate dogma over time.  So maybe when a sufficient number of lesson points have been earned, the master asks "what have you learned from this" and the student must express it in a sort of Koan.  "I have learned that that the empty hand carries the heaviest burden" or some such.  This is then recorded in the monastaries Big Book 'O Truth as a prop/play aid.  Ah well thats tuppence for ya.

Edit: or, existing koans could be established, in a more mission-based model, and a student tasked with "come back to me in a month ands explain the sound of one hand clapping" or something to that effect.

[Emily Care]

Koans would be a wonderful way to make some of the statements come out of in-play interactions...

Scratch some of my musings from yesterday. Vincent reminded me last night that:

Character spirituality level increases when other trait pairs are resolved.

Of course, how could I have forgotten.
:)

--Emily Care

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there,

Totally unsolicited interjection: I really like Gareth's suggestion about dogma accumulating. I especially like the possibility, which occurs to me, that such accumulations are less effective later - i.e., they have become dogma per se, no longer meaningful (ie experienced/understood) but merely obediently mouthed and hence worthless.

If it doesn't fit with the other notions about playing the game, that's cool, but I love that idea.

Best,
Ron

[Emily Care]

I especially like the possibility, which occurs to me, that such accumulations are less effective later - i.e., they have become dogma per se, no longer meaningful (ie experienced/understood) but merely obediently mouthed and hence worthless.

Hmm..we've been focusing on narrativist and gamist design elements, do we really want to go with Sim of TRW for the religion?  

:)Just a joke--thanks for lending your thoughts, Ron.  I like it too. Especially the idea of in-play generated koans being used for later neophytes to struggle with and learn from.

--Emily Care

[Emily Care]

Another suggestion from Vincent (who starting at midnight last night is now embroiled in the National November Writing Month--write a 50,000 word novelin a month!!!--so I don't expect him to have time to post about this :) was for us to seperate the die pool roles for Worldliness and Spirituality from the Virtue/Passion (and statement?) bonus die rolls.

In other words,  let the player decide on the forking narration (Worldly outcome, Spiritual outcome) and just roll the initial die pools. Then, after seeing how that comes out, decide whether to pull in a Virtue or Passion, and incorporate the trait of choice into the narrative at that point. This allows greater choice on the part of the player.

--Emily Care

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Em,

My thoughts, as you probably already divined, are in fact Premise-based and possibly strategic as well. The accumulating dogma presents an evolving conundrum for player-characters. As the dogma is more immediately accessible/familiar/encoded, but it gets less effective, and "new" insights and so forth are harder to generate, but very powerful. Seems like a good Gamist-Narrativist hybrid to me.

Best,
Ron

[Bob McNamee]

On the speed of advancement.

I prefer #3 - Slow at start, Fast mid, Slow at end

Would fit with the Dogma concept too.
Takes a while to wrap mind around Koans (or whatever) at first, then you "get them" easier, then they either lose their inspirational aspect for you  or you have learned all you can from them.

I wouldn't mind the Dogma idea with respect to the Mentor level.