Enlightenment (GGD Group Game Design)

[Bob McNamee]

I like the idea of the negative side being easier to use, thus Tempting. In the long run leading you astray and losing power and perhaps your monkhood. Perhaps, the worldly trait can be used to judge when you have fallen into the trap of worldly connections through dropping too low and perhaps maxing a negative trait pair moves Worldly automatically.

[Emily Care]

Hello! Yay, actual mechanics to work with! Excellent. Good work.  :) Sorry this post is so g_d-awful long...

one side note: as you can tell, I keep switching around on what to call each half of the trait-pair.... one possibility is to call the positive side of the trait a Virtue, but I'm not sure we want to call the negative side a sin... not sure what we should call it, though. Obstacle, maybe?

Do they all align with Worldly/Spiritual? We could use that to refer to them all. (eg Violence=worldly trait, Compassion=spiritual trait)  Temptation is very apt, too.

Oh, I just had an idea. :) Pre-monkdom experience could fall under the Past stat, post-monkdom experience could normally fall under a different stat: Path.  But experiences that run contrary to spiritual goals of the monk would increase their Past.  If so, there would have to be some kind of drawback to the Past Pool.

Maybe, when you roll using your past you can only use your worldly traits. When you use your Path pool you can use your spiritual traits. I'm afraid I'm having a hard time seeing if this would help or hinder what John suggested. Too sleepy. :)

And a simple char gen mechanic: for each point in each pool, you have to narrate an experience relating to an appropriate trait that gives you that die.  


And going back a bit:

if each stat pair has to add up to 10 (for example,) why not just write "Monk Theo has a 7 in Pride/Humility", then roll over for actions invoking humility and under for actions invoking pride.

This was where my confusion came from, John.  I was under the impression that the trait pairs would all add up to the same number. And if so, how could there be any variation if you roll above or below this total?  Now I think I get it: if the total # is 10 and I have Compassion 6 and Violence 4, really all I am doing is rolling above or below 4 or 6 on a d10. So, instead, we can just choose one number and say we roll above or below it. Yes? Good observation on your part.

I was thinking earlier that maybe there was a need for a stat like Family, Friends...etc that acted as a pull away from the contemplative enlightment into the world. Something mechanical to keep you from just deciding your way up the ladder. (always choosing the monkly choice)

If this was applied to the Past, pool, then whoever happens to be giving you obstacles could use your Past to make you use your worldly trait instead of your spiritual trait? Hmmm...that sounds dangerous.  

this would also work well with the "add a trait-pair on the fly" idea I suggested in this thread. if you add a whole bunch of trait-pairs during the early stages of play, your character becomes burdened with many bad behaviors and must work harder to get rid of them... but also has more passions (and virtues!) to draw on in play... by waiting until later, the trait-pairs are added at the character's current Worldly score and may thus be closer to resolving.

Very interesting.  I don't know if I suggested it, but the thought occurred to me that in order for a character to become really saintly, we could require that they have overcome a lot of challenges.  This sounds different from the earlier idea of having just so many trait pairs that any given character gets assigned.  We might want to look at the scope of the game (is this giong to be intended to be a short campaign system, or is it intended to support a long-term campaign set in a fully-elaborated world).

I'd like to see characters be individuated by which set of trait pairs they get assigned.  I hope this doesn't undercut the "single-character-class" nature of the design. I think it would work with it and help give niches for the individual characters.


--Emily Care

[Emily Care]

I've written an example of play as I understand it. Here are some suggestions I've thought of as I was writing it:

--Especially given the setting, letting other character support someone making a roll would be good.
--Past could be invoked to tempt characters into using their more worldly trait-pair half.  You could have to make a saving throw to avoid doing it.
--If a "Path" pool (from experiences after becoming a monk) look useful, it could be increased by completing signigicant tasks, and dice from it could use spiritual sides of the trait pairs more efficiently somehow.

--An alternate approach altogether that we could explore would be doing something like in Shadows, where the player narrates two actions: one using the negative half of the trait pair, one using the positive. The resolution could determine that narrative that happens.

normal roll:

[*]describe action being attempted
[*]roll dice equal to Past, opposed by opponent's Past, or:
   1 die for common actions, or
   3 dice for actions within the boundaries of your Past, or
   5 dice for actions outside your experience.
[*]dice higher than opposing dice count as successes
[/list:u]

negatively empowered ("unenlightened") roll:

[*]describe action being attempted, including how you are drawing upon your passions or attachments
[*]roll dice equal to Past, opposed as above, but add dice equal to the negative stat involved
[*]dice higher than opposing dice count as successes
[*]add 1 point to negative stat used
[/list:u]

postively empowered ("enlightened") roll:

[*]describe action being attempted, including how you are drawing upon your virtuous behaviour
[*]roll dice equal to Past, opposed as above, but add dice equal to the positive stat involved
[*]dice higher than opposing dice count as successes if they are also higher than your Worldly stat
[*]mark a tally next to the positive stat used (for a possible later gain)
[/list:u]

Example using the above:

Neophyte Yaffa
Has just joined her Monastery. She is from one of the fishing villages on the coast. She has--say--3 trait pairs, two personal from before her admission and the Worldly/Spiritual master pair. She's joining pretty young, say at 12-15, so her Past stat is low.

Past  3

Her first trait pair is Sloth/Industry. Working with her family gave her an appreciation for hard labor so her enlightened/virtuous/spiritual half of the trait is fairly well developed. (Using d6, so 6 is the max of any stat pair) She's got:

Sloth/Industry  2/4

Her second trait pair is Violence/Compassion.  The local gentry is extremely corrupt, so her family has been overtaxed and been forced to sell a couple of her siblings into slavery to survive.  Yaffa has attacked the tax collectors in the past, and been beaten for this.  Her violence is pretty high. (Though this situation evokes her compassion as well--for her family--maybe there could be a case for having some stats be higher than others depending on the circumstance: there might be higher potential for development in some areas than others?)

Violence/Compassion  5/1

She left her village and came to the monastery. She has a mix of motivations for coming, including a selfish desire to escape punishment, a compassionate desire to help her family and her own spiritual yearnings.

She has many attachments to her past, so her Worldly stat is correspondingly high. (Should it simply start out the same as the "worst" trait pair the character has?)

Worldy/Spirtual  5/1

The Rimpoche/Priest/Master who takes her in sees her potential in her strong desire to help her family.  He sees that she is in moral danger of falling into her baser desires.  She is sheltered and taken in, to ground her and her first tasks are to tend the sick, to help her compassion to grow.

postively empowered ("enlightened") roll:

[*]describe action being attempted, including how you are drawing upon your virtuous behaviour
[*]roll dice equal to Past, opposed as above, but add dice equal to the positive stat involved
[*]dice higher than opposing dice count as successes if they are also higher than your Worldly stat
[*]mark a tally next to the positive stat used (for a possible later gain)
[/list:u]

Yaffa is assigned to help with the sick children who have been brought to the monastery.  Many of them have the same illness, a fever that has swept through this part of the country side.  She is working with a team of other monks, to provide the round the clock care the children need to have any hope of surviving.  She is shown how to prepare the herbal decoctions and compresses used to treat those with the fever and assigned to making sure there is a steady supply.

Yaffa's player, or the gm, states that Yaffa has a hard time connecting with the children. There is a tense moment or two when she realizes that one of the children is from a family of one of the tax-collectors who beat her.  This would be a good moment for some kind of roll "against" making a Violent action of some sort.  

A Suggestion:
The player could narrate what the character would do if she fell into her darker side, and then make a saving throw to avoid it. All penalties of the usual use of the worldly or tempting traits would apply.  This would be a good place for Bob McNamee's suggestion about players having Family stats or having the Past come back somehow.

In order to accomplish the task, Yaffa's player invokes her Industrious trait.  

postively empowered ("enlightened") roll:

[*]describe action being attempted, including how you are drawing upon your virtuous behaviour
[*]roll dice equal to Past, opposed as above, but add dice equal to the positive stat involved
[*]dice higher than opposing dice count as successes if they are also higher than your Worldly stat
[*]mark a tally next to the positive stat used (for a possible later gain)
[/list:u]

She's got a Past 3, and a 4 in Industrious, so Yaffa's player rolls 7d6.

The task is outside the boundaries of her past, she's never done this before.  So the opposing role is 5d6.

Yaffa's player wants to call on the support of the other monks since her worldly stat is so high.  All her successes will have to be higher than 5 (her Worldly stat), not 4 (her Industrious stat).  

Rolls:

Yaffa         1-2-2-4-4-5-6
Opposing   2-3-3-5-5

The support of the other monks could allow her to only have to roll as high as her positive trait, rather than her worldliness.  So instead of only getting one success, this roll would give her three successes.

--Emily Care

[Bob McNamee]

I like the idea of all new monks starting with a Worldly / Spiritual trait pair of 'X' / 1...
Worldly / Spiritual (5/1) or (9/1)
New characters start the game mostly connected to the
world... even those with a "spiritual bent" are much more connected than they realize.

I like Past and Path as... categories / traits / dice pools /  target numbers concerning connections to the worldly Past (family, attitudes, experiences) or things learned along the spiritual Path (wisdom, selflessness, enlightenment).

The possiblity of doing something Shadow-like with them would be cool.

[talysman]

I've written an example of play as I understand it. Here are some suggestions I've thought of as I was writing it:

--Especially given the setting, letting other character support someone making a roll would be good.
--Past could be invoked to tempt characters into using their more worldly trait-pair half.  You could have to make a saving throw to avoid doing it.
--If a "Path" pool (from experiences after becoming a monk) look useful, it could be increased by completing signigicant tasks, and dice from it could use spiritual sides of the trait pairs more efficiently somehow.

just to clarify, I didn't suggest Past as being another form of attachment or obstacle, although I suppose we could use it that way. I think players should have a basic opportunity to resolve a scene without using any Virtue or Passion/Temptation at all; using a trait-pair would boost the basic opportunity. Past is thus just what you started to do before hearing the Call and seeking the monastery.

we could change it to another possible trait-pair, I suppose, and shift the game mechanic away from opposed rolls. for any action, roll 3 dice if it would be easy for anyone in your environment, 2 dice if it requires training and you've had that training, or 1 die if it's outside your training.

--An alternate approach altogether that we could explore would be doing something like in Shadows, where the player narrates two actions: one using the negative half of the trait pair, one using the positive. The resolution could determine that narrative that happens.

I'm not familiar with Shadows, although I read the description of the IRC session in Actual Play. I should investigate...

you described a character, Yaffa, and asked:

She has many attachments to her past, so her Worldly stat is correspondingly high. (Should it simply start out the same as the "worst" trait pair the character has?)

that was how I envisioned it (your Worldly stat begins equal to your highest Temptation/Passion at the moment you are accepted as a neophyte. Bob's suggestion (everyone starts with Worldly 5/Spiritual 1) sounds good, too. in fact, we could go with "you have Worldly 5/Spiritual 1, one stat-pair at 5/1, and a second stat-pair at 4/1" and not bother with point-buys. I figured we'd skip chargen for now, because we need to be able to describe characters first before deciding how to build those descriptions. we can almost describe the characters completely right now, but we need to work out conflict resolution in order to see what stats we actually need -- like the question of Past and Path. we haven't even decided how to handle economics or wounds yet.

Yaffa is assigned to help with the sick children who have been brought to the monastery.  Many of them have the same illness, a fever that has swept through this part of the country side.  She is working with a team of other monks, to provide the round the clock care the children need to have any hope of surviving.  She is shown how to prepare the herbal decoctions and compresses used to treat those with the fever and assigned to making sure there is a steady supply.

Yaffa's player, or the gm, states that Yaffa has a hard time connecting with the children. There is a tense moment or two when she realizes that one of the children is from a family of one of the tax-collectors who beat her.  This would be a good moment for some kind of roll "against" making a Violent action of some sort.  

A Suggestion:
The player could narrate what the character would do if she fell into her darker side, and then make a saving throw to avoid it. All penalties of the usual use of the worldly or tempting traits would apply.  This would be a good place for Bob McNamee's suggestion about players having Family stats or having the Past come back somehow.

I'm thinking it would be nice to avoid "saving rolls". instead, maybe Yaffa would make an ordinary roll while tending to the children, but if she doesn't get any successes, she must pick one of her negative traits and the GM must narrate a challenge that arose because of that trait... so if she chose Violence when she did not get her success, the GM says she was interrupted when she noticed one of the children is the daughter of the tax-collector. I don't think it's appropriate for the GM to tell you "your character lost control, went apeshit, and strangled the child. we would just pause the scene at that point, allowing the player to opt for a re-roll (and let's say re-rolls require using traits!) or to turn aside (no immediate game penalty, but the mentor might say "you failed to learn your lesson" and take away whatever tally points were earned on that mission.

Yaffa would have a decision to make: use her Compassion on a reroll and attempt to help the child despite her remembered pain, or attempt to use her Violence in an argument with the tax-collector, threatening to leave the child alone unless he did something to make amends. maybe with no successes on a reroll, the situation goes from bad to worse (the tax collector accuses a Compassionate Yaffa of attempting to kill his daughter, even though she did no such thing... or attempts to punish Yaffa's family for daring to threaten him.)

The support of the other monks could allow her to only have to roll as high as her positive trait, rather than her worldliness.  So instead of only getting one success, this roll would give her three successes.

I'd prefer to keep it a hard roll. she has the option of taking a simple roll (Past only, or 1/2/3 dice, or whatever a roll without a trait would be.) no risk, but no danger. plus, if she has to roll as high as her positive trait, then having other monks help her out would become less likely to succeed as her postive trait rose. and anyways, that one success gives her a tally-mark; she doesn't need the help of the other monks.

still, she's going to find it hard to raise a positive trait as a neophyte, and anyways it is desirable to get the group working together, so how about this: another monk could narrate his action during the scene as "I pray for Yaffa" or "I give her a few words of encouragement" (or something similar) and make a seperate roll. that monk's successes lower Yaffa's Worldly score temporarily, for the purpose of any enlightened or virtuous acts in that scene.

so Theo is with Yaffa... he tells Yaffa "remember the words of the prophet: to heal the wounds of the spirit, you must heal the wounds of the flesh" and rolls the dice. if Theo gets two successes, Yaffa's Worldly score dropps to 3 for this scene, making it easier for her to invoke her Virtue.

[talysman]

here's another thought, which may resolve the issue about using actual stat-pairs versus using a single number and a roll over/roll under mechanic: if we record the number right on the character sheet, we can use pairs of numbers and still only erase once every time the stat-pair changes. here is how we can record a stat-pair on the character sheet:

Code Select Expand



VIRTUE:  Compassion    6   5   4   3   2   1   0
                     < > < > < > < > < > <*> < >
PASSION:  Violence     0   1   2   3   4   5   6  



thus, you would make a mark in the diamond representing both your Compassion and your Violence, simultaneously.

I'll work up a character sheet mock-up (a little hard to do, seeing as we don't know all that's needed, but it will help...)

[contracycle]

Just a comment on the Worldly/Spiritual stuff.  You might indicate that these values also show the level of engagement of the character with that aspect of the world, and their withdrawal from it into monkhood.  A character still heavily engaged with (say) Family would get issues from  family matters brought to their attention; say a cousing travels to the monatsery to ask advice, tacitly offering temptation to abandon the pursuit of enlightenment in response to present needs.  Typiing this, I see I have more or less just described the Yoda-Luke-Obi Wan scene before Luke goes to Dagobah.

Anyway, this would shift attention to Embracing or Denying a particular temptation, while driving towards Enlightenment, the complete repudiation of the world (if that were of interest).

[Mike Holmes]

At this point, I think we have enough mechanics ideas in general terms. If people have a few more ideas, please post them. But we should start to make some solid decisions soon. So after a bit more posting on the subject, I think we should use some determination method to decide on exactly what to go orward with. I see this working one of two ways.

- We nominate people and vote on someone to write up the mechanics into a coherent whole. Then once written up, we tweak the mechanics.

- We bring up points one at a time, and vote on them individually, going back and forth on the rules until we have a complete set. Then sombody writes that up, and we tweak teh results.

The first method would be more expedient, but would result in a rule set that was less of a group effort. The latter would be a ton of work here, but would result in a more democratically chosen set of rules.

Let me say that I am of the belief that democracy is not always the best way to accomplish something. In the Roman republic, when a time of crises came upon Rome, the senate would appoint a "Speaker" who would wield complete authority for purposes of getting rid of a problem. This has it's dangers as well, however. Remember that "Speaker" translates to "Dictator" in Latin. Just something to think about.

Anyhow, what do people think about how to proceed?

BTW, I remove myself at this point from any writing duties. As originator of the thread, I may have undue influence (or have had). As such it should be somebody else who has that authority, whether the writing is done earlier or later.

Mike

P.S. In the future, I was thinking of designing a game by actual commitee. That is, several comittees of a limited number of persons would be set up as people joined, and each would have a distinct purview. Just an idea.

[Emily Care]

Virtue and Passion are good descriptors for the trait pair halves.   They will distinguish them from the individual pairs, without laying a strong value judgement on either half. The "diamonds" looks like a good format, though it will take up a bit of space.  Be interesting to see what these character sheets will look like.

so Theo is with Yaffa... he tells Yaffa "remember the words of the prophet: to heal the wounds of the spirit, you must heal the wounds of the flesh" and rolls the dice. if Theo gets two successes, Yaffa's Worldly score dropps to 3 for this scene, making it easier for her to invoke her Virtue.

This is good. Getting help of fellow monks does assist the character, but it requires active participation on the part of other players to happen. The example gives an arbitrary change of three. Could the bonus be related to the Virtue being called upon to help the other character?

just to clarify, I didn't suggest Past as being another form of attachment or obstacle, although I suppose we could use it that way. I think players should have a basic opportunity to resolve a scene without using
any Virtue or Passion/Temptation at all; using a trait-pair would boost the basic opportunity. Past is thus just what you started to do before hearing the Call and seeking the monastery.

I've been reading Past to equal the base pool of dice a player would roll to resolve a "normal" task.  Virtue/Passions come into play to give bonuses to the roll by adding dice and  changing the "to hit" number.

we could change it to another possible trait-pair, I suppose, and shift the game mechanic away from opposed rolls. for any action, roll 3 dice if it would be easy for anyone in your environment, 2 dice if it requires training and you've had that training, or 1 die if it's outside your training.

What kind of mechanics do we think will help the participants have the kind of play experience we want to foster? Enligtenment is Narrative oriented. Should we step back a moment and look at what kind of conflict resolution mechanics we want to use? We've got at least three suggestions currently:

*Die Pools (Past/Path) with V/P trait bonuses dice
*Shadows influenced type narrative choice--two actions narrated by player, one for virtue, one for passion, mechanics determine which of two is actualized, so to speak.
*Above straight role of 1,2, or 3 dice. How would traits be figured in?

Another possiblity:
--Using passion traits could force player to surrender narrative control (in limited fashion) to gm.
Or narrative control could be part of the currency of the game.  

You might indicate that these values also show the level of engagement of the character with that aspect of the world, and their withdrawal from it into  monkhood.

Each point of Past could be acquired by writing a sentence about what it represents in the character's life:

Yaffa's 3 points=
-Fishing village upbringing
-Family being overtaxed
-Personal conflict with tax collector

So they are three openings that can be use to tie in the character to dramatic hooks.

--Emily Care

[Sylus Thane]

Mike

P.S. In the future, I was thinking of designing a game by actual commitee. That is, several comittees of a limited number of persons would be set up as people joined, and each would have a distinct purview. Just an idea.

Sounds good to me, count me in, it's be a lot easier to keep track of that's for sure.

Sylus

[Emily Care]

Thanks for starting this ball rolling, and continuing to keep it contained and on track, Mike.

- We nominate people and vote on someone to write up the mechanics into a coherent whole. Then once written up, we tweak the mechanics.

This seems like the most efficient way to do it. And actually, that's what has happened so far.  

I suggest we pick an approach (general form of mechanics)--I listed some on my last post--and determine who will write them up.  Nomination would help us be more democratic, but how would we figure out who is best suited?
Or we could solicit suggestions and "vote" on them, then whoever's suggestion won approval could be be nominated to write it up.

P.S. In the future, I was thinking of designing a game by actual commitee. That is, several comittees of a limited number of persons would be set up as people joined, and each would have a distinct purview. Just an idea.

Sounds interesting. Each committe would get it's own thread that certain folks would work together on?  Good idea. Please continue your efforts.  Count me in, too.

--Emily Care

[Mike Holmes]

Thanks for starting this ball rolling, and continuing to keep it contained and on track, Mike.

Thanks for participating.

I suggest we pick an approach (general form of mechanics)--I listed some on my last post--and determine who will write them up.  Nomination would help us be more democratic, but how would we figure out who is best suited?
Or we could solicit suggestions and "vote" on them, then whoever's suggestion won approval could be be nominated to write it up.

My thought was that people should just nominate themselves. We will have to assume that any nominee can write well enough for this purpose (and given those I think likely to be nominated, I think we'll be more than fine). And this will also indicate who's willing to do the writing, as well.

Sounds interesting. Each committe would get it's own thread that certain folks would work together on?  Good idea. Please continue your efforts.  Count me in, too.

Will do. But one project at a time, I think. Let's just see how this one goes. :-)

Mike

[Bob McNamee]

First one sounds good... second one sounds like it could devlove into what we were already doing...no final decision

This makes me want to use Universalis rules to govern the creation of game rules...with Currency to creation, Challenges to unliked approaches, and possibly Complications for elaborating on rules...

:>

[Wormwood]

Hello,

Emily mentioned I should look into this post, as some mechanics I had mentioned may be of interest. So here goes, hoping I'm not to late to offer an option.

Build PC's of 4 virtues and 3 faults.

Assign each of these a die type - higher indicating a stronger proclivity. Loosely this is one "past" trait and 3 positive traits, and the faults are the negative traits.

When performing a virtue based action, roll the virtue's die and the 3 fault dice. The highest die determines the outcome, with the value of the roll being the degree of success or failure.

A fault based action is performed by rolling just the faults, with the fault in use being treated as the virtue of the previous example.

Ties of virtue and fault permit the fault to be lowered, but at the cost of success.  This is often a moment of revelation for the character.

So what do you think?

  -Mendel S.

[talysman]

Emily mentioned I should look into this post, as some mechanics I had mentioned may be of interest. So here goes, hoping I'm not to late to offer an option.

Build PC's of 4 virtues and 3 faults.

Assign each of these a die type - higher indicating a stronger proclivity. Loosely this is one "past" trait and 3 positive traits, and the faults are the negative traits.

When performing a virtue based action, roll the virtue's die and the 3 fault dice. The highest die determines the outcome, with the value of the roll being the degree of success or failure.

A fault based action is performed by rolling just the faults, with the fault in use being treated as the virtue of the previous example.

Ties of virtue and fault permit the fault to be lowered, but at the cost of success.  This is often a moment of revelation for the character.

So what do you think?

hi, Mendel, nice to see you here. while your mechanic looks nice, it kind of breaks some design decisions we've already settled on... in the game as it stands now, every virtue is paired with a passion (fault, as you refer to it,) with the passion being higher to start. game activity centers on scenes that dramatize the neophyte's efforts to reduce these passions, which automatically increases the corresponding virtue.

plus, I don't think we want multiple die types ... we've pretty much settled on all d6. also, the neophyte begins the game with very low virtues, high passions -- which would seem, under your system, to make virtue rolls almost impossible.

here's my thoughts on the double-action narration (Emily's idea of narrating both a Passion description and a Virtue description for the results of a roll): I think this might work for rolls using Virtue; for rolls using Passion, I think it might be better to have "Passion tinged with Virtue" on a success and pure Passion on no success. for an ordinary roll ... hmm ... it might work, but I'm also inclined to having each player announce at the beginning of a mission "I want to be challenged by my Violence" or something similar... then the GM describes the mission, meanwhile working up possible challenges that could manifest on rolls with no successes.

here's another thought I had: go ahead and add Family and Past, work up special mechanics, but leave it open as to whether they act as trait-pairs or not. only some religions would think of Family or Past as an unnecessary attachment; others might accept using past knowledge or maintaining family relationships (zen might fall into case #1, but medieval christian monks often practised a craft learned in their past on behalf of the monastery... and often maintained ties to their family. actually, I think buddhist monks maintain family ties somewhat, or at least the tibetan monks in this one movie relied on help from their cousins when the chinese cracked down...)

I was thinking of this as I was designing the character sheet. Past, Family, and Worldly would all be listed in pretty much the same format as the trait-pairs, but Past and Family would have special rules and would not be reduced unless that religion believed in renouncing those ties.