Martial Arts

[Mordacc]

Ashren is right, so, for arguments sake, lets assume in my world i am correct.  how would we apply these examples of things i have said to the game.  (again, assuming i am correct)

[GreatWolf]

Focus Combat Ki (defensive maneuver).

Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Toughness.  Every success equals a +1 TO that lasts until the end of combat.

Focus Combat Ki (offensive maneuver).

Pay 1 CP and assign X CP to roll against user's current Strength.  Every success equals a +1 ST that lasts until the end of combat.  Focusing does give the initiative to the opponent.

Want to tone these down?  Make the duration one round.

No, I haven't playtested these.  Just throwing out ideas.

Seth Ben-Ezra
Great Wolf

[Michael Tree]

No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.

I don't think you are being arrogant or full of it, but you are being extremely orientalist.  Orientalism is the belief that things of the orient are exotic, extremely unlike anything the west has, and innately superior.  You clearly believe all of these things regarding eastern martial arts.

Take your judo/wrestling example.  You make a huge, sweeping assertion about the total superiority of one style over another based on... what?  That style's assertion that it's better?  The fact that it's more philosophical (with an underlying unproven assumption that more philosphical = better techniques in practice)?  There certainly isn't any actual data indicating anything of the sort.

For an interesting comparison, look at the ultimate fighting championships, extremely skilled fighting competetions open to fighters of any style or background.  Year after year, the people who win are consistently either 1) masters of jiu-jutsu or other grappling arts fighting people unfamiliar with their style, or 2) huge pot-bellied rednecks who lift rocks for fun and regularly fight in bar brawls.

All the data I've seen show that beyond a certain level, actual techniques used don't matter much.  What matters is amount of training and amount of actual fighting experience.  The advantage eastern martial arts have, the reason why they're generally considered to be superior (aside from orientialist biases) is that they are formalized, and as such allow practitioners to begin to train and practice without constantly getting into fights.

The other important aspect of fighting is familiarity with the fighting style of your opponent.  Every fighting style has tricks and techniques that can be countered if you are familar with them, but which can catch the unfamiliar off their guard.  But when both fighters are very skilled and experienced, that doesn't matter much.

[Brian Leybourne]

Focus Combat Ki

Those are actually pretty good, Seth. I don't think I would use them myself (don't see the need, to be honest) but on the whole, pretty good.

Being inherantly magical, I would probably limit their use, perhaps to people with semi-gifted blood (D or E race priority perhaps). I also think that "end of the combat" is probably too much a benefit, while "end of the round" is possibly not enough. A good compromise would be that it lasts a certain number of exchanges, either fix it at 2 or 3 or 4 exchanges, or you could even include it in the mechanic: Instead of spending 1 to activate the power, you spend X, where X is the number of exchanges it will last.

Brian.

[Mordacc]

Since Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority.  these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities

[Shadeling]

Since Ki is a real thing in this world, i would simply have an extra priority named Ki and assign points depending on the priority.  these points could then be intigrated into combat meneuvers and other things such as reflex and physical activities

Did you think perhaps that Ki is already represented well in SAs?

[Mordacc]

In not exactly sure what you meant by that question but if you meant that all characters already have Ki training which is represented by their SAs then no.  It takes alot of practice in order to harness Ki to a level which is effective in combat.

[Bankuei]

Hey everyone, let's chill on the east vs. west thing, ok?  Pretty much unless people hunt down all these masters and get them in a room together and see them do their thing, its just words against words at this point.  And really, arguing the superiority of things we're not going to take the effort to test is pretty pointless.

Mordacc had a legitimate question concerning game rules, in a world in which faeries and magic exists, so let's not rip on the idea of what's "real" when we're throwing it into a fantasy world.  If folks want to take time to debate real life, I'd say the best thing is for folks to hop on a plane or a greyhound, and see folks do whatever they can do.  Otherwise, drop it.

I'll say again what I've said before, fighting techniques are about what weapon you're using, it what area you live in, against whoever you're fighting and what they're using.  

For a good portion of Western military history, we're talking mass armies, field combat, arrows raining down on you, and calvary.  After that, we're talking rifles and nasty stab-stab with bayonets, and after that, its guns and artillery, then airplanes.  Some other countries, where everyone still carries machetes and such, still have machete and knife fighting techniques.  Some places, people still hunt, and sometimes fight with spears.  

Depending on how common combat is for those people really determines how effective their styles going to be.  I hear Italians still have good knife fighters.  Spanish are still some of the best horseriders around.  The point is, "My master can beat up your master" or "My style is better than your style" is all bullshit.  It's about individuals as fighters.  I agree that some styles are more effective in combat than others.  I believe that good fighters come from all styles, if they use their noggin and realize what's effective and not effective and train hard.  My own teacher said, "Boxers are dangerous, because they're one of the few styles that train people to hit properly..."

So let's drop the bragging/that's bullshit stuff and keep it where it belongs.  In a real fight.

Chris

[Michael Tree]

Well said Bankuei.  [glee] It's such a fun debate though! [/glee]

For TROS rules for the ki powers you describe, I don't think that a ki priority would be the best way to handle it.  After all, ki, unlike sorcery in TROS and the Force in Star Wars, is something that everyone has the potential to master.  It's a matter of skill or proficiency, perhaps learned gifts, not innate ability.

Actually, I'm not sure that much needs to be changed in the rules.  For the ability to withstand tremendous blows, isn't it simplest to just increase the Toughness attribute?  What difference does if make if the high Toughness is due to being huge or due to disciplined ki.  Both are gained through a combination of talent and training.

The same can be said for strength.  In game terms, the ability to hit hard is measured by a combination of strength and proficiency.  Martial arts masters would have the ability to hit as hard as a warhammer due to a combination of ki-enhanced strength (ie. a high Strength attribute) and very high proficiency ratings.

Some new martial arts maneuvers would be appropriate though, especially decent kicks, locks, disarming, and aikido-like redirections and throws.  Perhaps some gifts to represent some of the more esoteric ki abilities would be appropriate too.

[Jon the Bastard]

Actually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS.   Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun  as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike.   Now, it doesn't sound too impressive, but it is really effective against a standard brawler.   I think that there is no need to have an activation cost for hand attacks; a range penalty is punishment enough.   After all, the problem with hand to hand strikes isn't hitting them, it's getting them to stay down once you hit them.   I don't care what ancient ninja techniques Hung Lo Mak knows, he's gonna die real quick when Joe Blow runs him through.   But that is the thing about martial arts.   They are very effective under very specific conditions.  

By the way, the Ninjutsu hand-to-hand techniques are called NINpo, not Nimpo.   At least, that's what Shidoshi Shephen K. Hayes, the first American to learn Togakure-Ryu Ninjutsu says.

[Mordacc]

I believe either Ninpo or Nimpo are correct terms.  Perhaps they are slightly different schools of the same thing im not quite sure.  By the way Jon, what armed forces were you in when you got youre "infantry training"?

[wpbarr]

In TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game.

...

Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him.  Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over

And this 20th century, unarmed fighting style fits into the TROS period how?

Moreover, spiritless fighting styles - like Wu Shu - seem to have no place in TROS. On the other hand, Shaolin Kung Fu might be a much better match since it's a physical form given to a formless philosophy.

Just my stupid opinions, anyways ....

[arxhon]

Since Ki is a real thing in this world

Can you point me to independently verified corroboration of this fact? If so, please do. Otherwise, i will lump this under your assertation that your "nimpo sensei" is a record breaking high jumper.

That is irrelevant, however.

An extra priority named Ki? Some questions, then.

1. Are you modifying the character generation system somehow?
2. If so, are you dropping a category, like race or social class?
3. Or are you adding extra priorities (e.g. A, A, B, C, D, E ,F)?
4. If none of the above, then how are characters going to be able to use Ki, since they cannot purchase it without giving something up one of the previously determined categories like Social Class, or Attributes?  

All of which are poor solutions, compared to the elegance of making Ki a Sorcery style power.

No matter, i still think that KEWL POWERZ will be nothing but detrimental to the game. Speaking of KEWL POWERZ, has anyone visited http://realultimatepower.net? There is a lot of useful info there too, all about nnjas, and quite factual, apperently.

[Michael Tree]

Ninpo and Nimpo are just different transliterations of the Japanese.  They are written and pronounced exactly the same way in Japanese.

Can you point me to independently verified corroboration of this fact?

He was talking about the asian-themed TROS world he was creating martial arts rules for.

No matter, i still think that KEWL POWERZ will be nothing but detrimental to the game. Speaking of KEWL POWERZ, has anyone visited http://realultimatepower.net? There is a lot of useful info there too, all about nnjas, and quite factual, apperently.

Now now, lets not be nasty.  Why are powers detrimental to the game, if they fit its genre?  Is Sorcery detrimental to TROS?  Is the Force detrimental to Star Wars?  Why then would ki powers be detrimental to an asian themed setting?

That website's a classic though.

[Enoch]

It would have to be Ninpo because the syllable nim is not possible using standard Japanese (you can do it with katakana somehow though, but katakana is usually reserved for foreign words).

Actually, I've been thinking that most Martial Arts can be fairly easily modeled by the rules for manuvers in TRoS. Fer'instance, I modeled Wing Chun as a martial art the relys almost exclusively on a hand-to-hand version of Bind and Strike.

That's actually a cool idea.  I'll have to think about that when ripping the (powered down) five elemental martial art styles from Exalted to my game.

-Joshua