Martial Arts

[Mordacc]

In TFOB, i assume there will be some coverage of oriental martial arts, however i have some specific questions about the applications of specific types of martial arts to the game.  As a practitioner of Nimpo, the original form of combat and lifestyle of the ninja, Combat Ki, am Americanized martial art focusing on intense physical/mental conditioning allowing the wielder to sustain blows that are fatal to others, and Jeet Kun Do, the martial art developed by Bruce Lee, I would like to see how some of the skills in these martial arts would be applied to the game.  

In Nimpo, one of the main focuses when it comes to open combat is agility and out-meneuvering of your opponent.  My sensei has been practicing Nimpo for many years now and I have seen him jump over an eight foot hurtle without using his hands, drop a charging sumo wrestler from a standing position, and throw a man three times his weight accross a room effortlessly.

Combat Ki is a unique art which teaches the practitioner to withstand immense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone.  With intense mental and physical training, a skilled master can withstand a blow to the jugular by a boxer and sustain no injury.

Jeet Kun Do is a very practical martial art that teaches one to use an opponents momentum against him in order to gain an advantage against him.  Bruce Lee developed this from a mix of many other styles of fighting form all over the world.


My question is how would all of these extraordinary abilities be incorporated into the game?  TROS is a frighteningly realistic RPG, and it stresses that a character is still a mortal like everyone else, but there are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice.  Blows from the hands of a Nimpo master easily rival that of a war hammer or club.  Punches have been recorded as delivering 2500 pounds of force by men of 65 years of age.  THe current rules for unarmed combat in ROS do not do justice to oriental styles of martial arts, however suitable they may be to a back-alley brawler or wrestler.

What are some ways that the extraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game?  I was thinking of a new priority labeled Ki, much like the priority of Force i have seen for Star Wars ROS.  

Any suggestions would be welcomed and i can provide additional explanations of any of these martial arts or different styles if necessary.
Also, i would be happy to give input as far as oriental combat goes in TFOB.

Thanks as always,
Mordacc

[Ashren Va'Hale]

Firstof all, no offense is intended here, I just have to ask abou the combat ki... HOW do you practice that? "ok sensei, I believe I am ready.... kick me in the jimmy!" somehowI am reminded of Kung Pow when the Chosen one checks to see if he too posesses the "special skill"....
I imagine that mistakes are easy to spot..... seriously, how do you build up to that?

Edit: I think that mechanically speaking you are talking LARGE ASS combat pools for those masters, if you have a combat pool of 30 something in unarmed then TROS handles that well, and you are talking about a 65 year old MASTER. As for taking shotsin the jimmy, I suppose a major gift of "the special skill" would work....

[Bankuei]

High toughness=harder to hurt
High strength=more damage
High willpower=resist pain

The only thing you'd need to add would be a specialized first aid/medical type skill to represent internal arts to do stuff like reduce shock and bloodloss post fight.  Internal arts are often just another part of training, and take a fair amount of time to develop, so that's the reason I suggest making it simply part of the stats.  Just like "mean old man" strength, your strength score doesn't have to reflect giant bulging muscles, but could simply be a result of whatever makes you strong.

From the few folks who I've met who practiced ninjistu, they used a lot of Full Evade and Duck and Weave.  Jeet Kun Do folks used a lot of counter(stop kicks) and buying initiative.

Chris

[tauman]

Okay, I was skeptic at first, but when you said "...are still many forms of combat not covered in TROS where the practitioners make knights look like mice," you lost all credibility. Frankly, when "Eastern Martial Artists" start bragging about "superhuman" abilities (i.e. surviving wounds that would be fatal to others, etc.), they lose all credibility in my eyes. While I'm sure your 65-year-old master can do impressive things, I have yet to see an example of "super Ki abilities" in the real world. As for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems. Not that they aren't effective, but when comparing east versus west, the biggest surprise is the number if similarities. Really, the biggest difference is the eastern tendency to incorporate spirituality and philosophy into the Martial Arts.

Sorry if this seems like a flame or personal attack, it's just that I felt that I had to add my 2 cents.

How is this post game related? Well, to my eyes, adding an eastern element is more one of terminology and differences in equipment than combat rules. Miyamoto Musashi's 2-weapon style would be pretty similar to the western two-weapon styles. A single-sword (katana) style is a cut-and-thrust style (the real difference might be in the special maneuver preferences). This still hasn't covered some of the non-Japanese traditional weapons: the "Tai Chi Sword" (can't remember the proper name), although given the width of the blade, it isn't going to be as effective for cutting as an arming sword (cutting damage would probably be somewhat better than a rapier slash). Of course many of the traditional unbladed weapons are modified peasant tools--some much more effective than others. Pole arms are pole arms, so the current rules probably work as given. Such weapons as nunchakus, sai, jitte, etc., would be extremely limited in damage potential against an armored opponent (although the last two would be good off-hand weapons for parrying). Remember, peasants used such weapons because they were not able to obtain or possess swords, not because they thought that their modified farm implements were better than swords (the same goes for them learning unarmed combat instead of sword-fighting styles).

Really, I think that adding Eastern styles is mostly one of terminology with a few items added to the equipment list. Sure a few new maneuvers and styles would need to be added, but nothing that would require a rules overhaul.

--Steve

[arxhon]

Ninjas are totally sweet! I once saw a ninja kill an entire town because somebody dropped a spoon! :-)
[/plaigirized joke mode]

Dude, your sensei should be trying for the Guiness Book of Records. Here's the current record holder:

Javier Sotomayor of Cuba, achieved the record height of 2.43 m (7 ft 11.6 in) on March 4, 1989, in Budapest, Hungary.

For that matter, he should be in the Ultimate Fighting Championship. He can apparently take out Tank Abbot without breaking a sweat.

I've seen a lot of martial arts, and the only time i've seen someone drop someone as strong and massive as a charging sumo wrester from a standing position was in 2 situations: a). a movie, or b). the sumo wrestler "played along"

Same goes for throwing people.

I've seen a guy who knows Savate destroy "Martial Arts Masters".(Savate is french, btw, if you've never heard of it). I've seen plain ol' greco-roman wrestling destroy 'martial arts masters'. Same goes for "big guy who punches stuff real hard, but not much else".

Anyway on to the rest of my rant.

this also bothers me:

immense blows to vital areas such as the neck, grion, chest, and head that would normally kill someone

It bothers me, because i can envision these combat masters just standing there while swords reflect off their heads, and then hurling the dude with the sword half way across town. This sounds like TROS Supers to me. :-P

extraordinary abilities of Ki energy might be incorporated inot the game

....here come the Kewl Powerz.......

[arxhon]

I'm trying to say that maybe invulnerable asian 'martial arts masters' should be Gifted, rather than just ordinary joe army dude. This would satisfy everybody, I think.

You get your Ki powers instead of Vagaries, where you can do really cool stuff like balance on the end of your enemy's sword for a second (Partial Evasion on a thrust, with a High TN, Ki pool expenditure, instead of Spell pool) and then kick them in the face (you gained initiative for a successful defence, Kick to Area V).

This would be in keeping with the mystical Orient, without being crazy. Ninjas really could disappear in a puff of  smoke and walk on water. Kung fu masters really could leap 20 feet to the top of a bamboo shaft and fight perfectly fine, through Ki (or whatever).

This could go somewhere.

[Drew Stevens]

That would also explain why all those Ancient Masters were ancient...

[arxhon]

Yes, it would, wouldn't it?:-)

[Enoch]

I've seen a lot of martial arts, and the only time i've seen someone drop someone as strong and massive as a charging sumo wrester from a standing position was in 2 situations: a). a movie, or b). the sumo wrestler "played along"

I've done it to someone as large as a sumo wrestler (not as strong though).  Of course I was almost as large as him and was stronger than him so I guess that doesn't count.  :P

Mordacc, not to be mean, your post gives us normal eastern martial arts practioners a bad name.  We are not super heroes.

Also, most of your ideas can be easily placed into tRoS.  High strength will cause your punches to explode skulls (Stupid 7 STR 8 TOU brawler!).  Amp tougness and strength.  I don't know how to do the Jumping thing without magic though.

-Joshua

[Mordacc]

Well take in mind in not saying that going in and practicing karate for a couple years makes you able to fly.  In talking about a select few masters in the world who have devoted their life to martial arts.  And frankly, yes, there are some eastern martial arts that are similar to western styles but pit a judo master against a greek wrestler or some other western fighter and i guarentee you jodu wins out.  Im not trying to say that knights are worthless, but there are amny styles of fighting that westerners DONT GET.

As far as ki goes, i think an extra priority named Ki would be the best soution to the problem.  Vagaries are nice but ki really isnt all that mystical and can be harnessed (to some degree) by anyone.  Really, in order to get some of the very raw basics down all you have to do is go to the library and pick up a book on it.[/i]

[Mordacc]

Also im not trying to insult western styles of fighting, despite what i may sound like.  i have great respect for the strength of wrestlers and knights.. i simply was pointing out that, just like the west has amny things the east lacks, so does the east have things the west lacks.  THe west generally has more technology and is more equipped for mass combat, as well as a more sensible soldier, unlike the eastern suicide machine.  The easts advantages tended to be in hand to hand combat, discipline, and mental/physical/soul (basically the mystical stuff) unification.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

ok, I was not trying to offend before, but thats just stupid. That bit about judo vs. Greco roman bit wins the "look Iam absolutely full of it award" now I dont flame much so you know the statement is bad when I get into it so let me just tell a little story about a greco roman wrestler, olympic medal winner and coach at my university who heard someone say basically what you did and so this wrestler decided to show what a load of dung that mental fart actually was and signed up for the ultimate fighting champpionship and not only did he beat the judo guy but every other "martial artist" who joined in and he whooped them good and hard. this is example 1 of many that you really should play the thought game prior to opening your fat yapper.

[/end flame mode]

But should you want to put that flavor into your game please knock yourself out and enjoy, because after all TROS is a FANTASY rpg. [end residual flame mode].

[Mordacc]

While i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out.  the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff.  im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles.  No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.  
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result.  THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.

[Ashren Va'Hale]

I think we can settle on the idea that we both strongly disagree with each other then and we should probably leave things at that. You think X I think y, both are mutually exclusive and neither will convince the other. We do agree though that TROS is flexible enough for both x and y however I am sure.

[Shadeling]

While i dont doubt the skill of your coach, i still have to say that judo would win out.  the skill of the challenger may not have been at his level.
also, your coach sounds like quite the combatant, so im sure he known his stuff.  im not trying to say that eastern martial arts are better than western styles, im just trying to say that there are many aspects of open hand fighting that the western styles dont practice, such as Ki and other mind/body unification styles.  No, i was not trying to sound arrogant and full of it (despite how i may have come accross) and i was not dissing western martial arts.  
I will also admit that many people who do take some form of karate or jodu tend to brag alot about their skill and many do get beaten sneseless as a result.  THey have simply never been tought that martial arts is about peace, not war.

The Ki thing isn't necessarily exclusive to Eastern styles. Sure it is wrapped in a philosophical package, but seriously. Take when I was in American football for example. We were a tiny school, and therefore alot of us had to play both ways. Physical practice alone didn't cut the cream, so to speak. We had to psyche ourselves out mentally and spiritually. We had to make our minds strong, much like the description of Ki. I believe there are many western fighting styles that did similar things. I mean think about the Scotish warriors who had to fight these insurmountable odds against the British army during the days of Willaim Wallace. It wasn't so much just their insane training, but also the mindset, it would have to be against insurmountable odds. As tauman said earlier:

As for eastern martial arts having some sort of special insight into sword fighting or unarmed combat--as I learn more and more about the martial arts of my heritage (i.e. Western Martial Arts), I have come to realize that they are just different cultures solving the same problems.