Name of the Game

[Mike Holmes]

Since we're (well I am at least) itching to talk about the game that Ralph and I am finishing up I thought that I'd bring up a relatively innocuous subject related to it.

Currently the working title is Universalis, or more properly, Universalis, the Game of Unlimited Stories. In testing I've had mixed feedback. The title is supposed to be evocative of the fact that the game is a Universal RPG, by which I mean to say that the rules really can handle anything. This may sound like a boast, but I can only say that I've used it to play RPGs in testing that did not exist before we used this game to play them. You will all, of course, have to judge for yourselves.

Another salient fact about the game is that all players are essentially GMs at the same time, and everything can be created on the Fly. No prep time necessary if you don't feel like it.

And one more thing. Lots of people who have played it say that it's not even really a RPG (still aimed at the RPG crowd, however). So whatever we choose I think we want to stay away from that particular apellation.

Anyhow, what do people think of the above title? Does it get the idea across well, make you want to buy it? Some of the people who say they don't like it have had odd reasons, so I'm looking for a more objective audience, here. Are you for subtitles or not? Anybody got a good idea for a name that would fit, or just advice on naming in general.

Naming a generic game has been really difficult, despite seemiong like a sort of minor thing. We may end up going with Universalis in the end, but I just wanted to poll the group and see what people thought.

Thanks in advance for your responses,
Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Hey,

I'm happy with "Universalis." What I'm not sure about is the pronunciation - is the accent on the third syllable or the fourth?

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

I believe the Italian world for Universal is Universalis...and the accent there is on the fourth syllable.

- J, amazing monkey man

[Valamir]

Ha!  There's one besides me :smile:

Actually Universalis was just a working title I'd given it when I needed to refer to it as something other than "this game I'm working on", but I've become rather enamored of it...probably due to familiarity.

I've always placed the accent on the third.
Uni-vers-AL-is or Universe Alice if you prefer :smile:

[Mike Holmes]

As I recall, I had mentioned the game Europa Universalis to Ralph which he had heard of and then he started using just Universalis for the name. The game is French, but as the name has an obvious Latin root (or may actually be Latin for all I know), I think that is what we were thinking in our Universe Alice pronunciation. At least I was.

Hey, while we're at it, Ron, did you say that a universal game could not be narrative, or was that somebody else? Better question, having read the game, would you classify it as G or N or S or would you be in the its not an RPG camp? If not an RPG what do we call it? I ask in part because I myself am not really sure.

I'm not sure that classifying it is critical, but, if possible , I'd like to use the GNS model to check the design. Do we have conflicting priorities? Any problems that may arise in play that we haven't seen in testing? Etc. See what I'm getting at?


Mike

[hardcoremoose]

To be perfectly honest, the title doesn't do much for me.  I can't really say why I don't like it...it just doesn't convey any interest to me.

Which is not to say that your game is not interesting, but I had the opportunity to hear MIke's pitch at GenCon.

I like the subtitle though.

Take care,
Moose

(whose opinions of titles means next to nothing; he thought Sorcerer was a cheap White Wolf knock-off when he first heard of it).

[Paul Czege]

I have to agree with Scott. The title doesn't grab me...it really doesn't capture the essence of what it's like to play the game. So...possible titles, in order of my personal preference:

Writ Large
Infinity
Disruption of Entropy
Aperture Contraction

Paul

[Ron Edwards]

Mike,

"... Ron, did you say that a universal game could not be narrative, or was that somebody else?"

I don't think anyone said that. My thoughts on the "universal" issue are listed in another thread at the Forge; I'll hunt for it and edit it into this post.

I think that what you mean by "universal" in Universalis is to create a universe (and more), whereas in gamer parlance "universal" means "sufficient for all modes and purposes of role-playing." I think that the latter is absurd.

"Better question, having read the game, would you classify it as G or N or S or would you be in the its not an RPG camp? If not an RPG what do we call it? I ask in part because I myself am not really sure."

As I see it, Universalis is a role-playing game, for whatever my opinion is worth. Its GNS tendencies are something that we should see emerge through play, not through a snap judgment. It's unusual enough that I'd like to consider the question for a bit.

"... I'd like to use the GNS model to check the design. Do we have conflicting priorities? Any problems that may arise in play that we haven't seen in testing? Etc. See what I'm getting at?"

Um, that I should really get to reviewing it carefully? That's true.

Best,
Ron

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-09-25 10:12, Paul Czege wrote:
 So...possible titles, in order of my personal preference:

Writ Large
Infinity
Disruption of Entropy
Aperture Contraction

Wow. You are for the Avant Guard titles. Aperture Contraction? That gives rise to some images that I don't think are particularly appropriate, at least from my vantage point. :smile:

Writ Large. I kinda like that one, actually. At least it gives me the idea that we might want to go for something more unique. Thanks for the ideas.

Mike

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I also dislike the title, but titles are funny things.  Who in their right mind would've thought a game called GURPS would be successsful?

The problem is the title doesn't mean anything.  That must be built.  Just as GURPS went from a gutteral sound to a popular RPG line.

At this point, Universalis will be what you make of it.

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-09-25 10:29, Ron Edwards wrote:
Mike,

"... Ron, did you say that a universal game could not be narrative, or was that somebody else?"

I don't think anyone said that. My thoughts on the "universal" issue are listed in another thread at the Forge; I'll hunt for it and edit it into this post.

No, I'm positive somebody said it. Might have been Josh. Not really important who, I'd just like to hear the argument. Quite possibly correct.

I think that what you mean by "universal" in Universalis is to create a universe (and more), whereas in gamer parlance "universal" means "sufficient for all modes and purposes of role-playing." I think that the latter is absurd.

Well, I like that connotation for Universalis, but hadn't really thought of it that way, previously. No, I personally meant Universal as in the GURPS Universal (remember, I'm one of those wacky Simulationist GURPS fans). I don't think that our game is the be all for every genre of play, certainly, but I think that it can work for any genre. Has to, as it has none itself.

"Better question, having read the game, would you classify it as G or N or S or would you be in the its not an RPG camp? If not an RPG what do we call it? I ask in part because I myself am not really sure."

As I see it, Universalis is a role-playing game, for whatever my opinion is worth. Its GNS tendencies are something that we should see emerge through play, not through a snap judgment. It's unusual enough that I'd like to consider the question for a bit.

I like that answer. It means that it's not necessarily due to being too close to the game or a lack of understanding on my part that is causing my inability to label the game.

Obviously, the game puts every player in Director mode all the time if they like. Perhaps it falls into that Gamist/Narrativist category that has been mentioned of late, like Pantheon (?IIRC). Anyhow, just searching for labels. Might not be all that useful at this point.

"... I'd like to use the GNS model to check the design. Do we have conflicting priorities? Any problems that may arise in play that we haven't seen in testing? Etc. See what I'm getting at?"

Um, that I should really get to reviewing it carefully? That's true.

Wasn't trying to imply anything of the sort. I appreciate very much all the consideration that you've given the game so far. I'm just genuinely concerned about this project, and hope that I can get more of the excellent feedback that you and the others here provide. Few have seen the game yet, so there are few places to get this feedback from.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-09-25 10:50, pblock wrote:
I also dislike the title, but titles are funny things.  Who in their right mind would've thought a game called GURPS would be successsful?

The problem is the title doesn't mean anything.  That must be built.  Just as GURPS went from a gutteral sound to a popular RPG line.

At this point, Universalis will be what you make of it.

I agree. But, um, Title Does Matter? Sure the title doesn't have to be gripping or indicative. But I was hoping that it would be anyhow. Perhaps I am too worried about it.

And I like GURPS as a title. It does grab you and ask what it stands for, which when spelled out gives an idea of the intent (no matter how well or poorly achieved). I think it helps to sell products to have that easily identified GURPS plastered in bold across the top.

I have a very complicated sim game that I've worked on for years that right now needs spreadsheets to run effectively. My friends have dubbed it Holmes' Universal Role-Playing Entertainment System or HURPES.

I don't suppose that'd sell well. :wink:

Mike

[Ron Edwards]

Mike

As with any discussion of terms like universal, the topic switches under us.

"I don't think that our game is the be all for every genre of play, certainly, but I think that it can work for any genre. Has to, as it has none itself."

Whoa - I did not mention genre. I said GOAL and MODE OF PLAY. I stick by my point that no RPG can satisfy any and all goals and modes of play.

If we're going to talk about genre, then I have to sigh and say, "genre is an undefined term," because it is. There's a whole thread on THAT, too, somewhere.

Let's say, for the moment, that a given genre is kind of an inclusive term for some specific setting, situation, color, premise, and character types. In my view, a game that is set up to build or include multiple genres (as defined here), is GENERALIST - not "universal." It can handle multiple setting/character/situation/color combinations, but that doesn't alter the various GNS or stance orientations of play that the game itself facilitates ACROSS this varieties of genre.

Best,
Ron

[Jack Spencer Jr]

On 2001-09-25 11:11, Mike Holmes wrote:
I agree. But, um, Title Does Matter? Sure the title doesn't have to be gripping or indicative. But I was hoping that it would be anyhow. Perhaps I am too worried about it.

Well, like I said titles are funny things.

I used to be part of Crtters, an on-line critiquing group, but I quit because I was too damned lazy to be a worthwhile member.

Durning my time there, I submitted two stories for critique.  One was titled "My Baby Will Have No Head" and response was unbelieveable.  Moreso because the story came up in the queue around the Fouth of July holiday and it was a double sized bundle of manuscripts to cover two week due to the holiday and all of that.  More than one person mentioned that the title was the reason why they read my manuscript.

The point is that yes indeedy title does matter.  But title only gets people to take a look.  What's inside is what's important.

That said, maybe you do need a new title.  The word, well, is "Universal(is)" and when I saw it I thought  "Oh jeez, not another universal game."

I doubt that's the response you want.

I have a very complicated sim game that I've worked on for years that right now needs spreadsheets to run effectively. My friends have dubbed it Holmes' Universal Role-Playing Entertainment System or HURPES.

I don't suppose that'd sell well. :wink:

Well, that's hard to say.  It may turn out that millions of Americans have HURPES or that everyone knows someone who has HURPES.  Many who have HURPES may keep it a secret from their spouses because they got it from their old girlfriend or other such lame jokes I could come up with.

eh, you probably don't want to use that title anyway.  You'd offend more people than the lame jokes would be worth.

Just ask the guy who wrote the Neo Geo Pocket emulator with the tasteless name "Rather A Pokemon Emulator?"

No matter how bad I get, there's always someone with much less taste.

[Ron Edwards]

Found them!

My thoughts on genre are in "The Role of Genre in RPG Design" last posted to on 9-4-01.

My thoughts on the "universal" label are in "The 'universal' issue" last posted to on 6-7-01.

Both are in this forum.

Best,
Ron