Fungeon - GMless Dungeon Crawling (Preliminary Design)

[Zak Arntson]

Okay, over at livejournal, I've put up a sneaky peek at Fungeon.

http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=15027185

Simple currency, Room by Room play, resolution builds in a fun way of narrating events.

In a nutshell: Distill dungeon crawling PCs down to: Class, Level, Hits.  Monsters and Traps down to: Level.

There are two conflicts: Painful and Annoying.  One causes damage, the other doesn't.

Players take turns describing Rooms, filling them with Traps, Treasure and Monsters.

Have fun!

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Awesome name! I'll check out the game ASAP.

Later...

Okay, that's pretty cool.

[ This Message was edited by: Jared A. Sorensen on 2001-11-13 14:30 ]

[Mike Holmes]

Hmmm. Some questions.

How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
Can the Fungeoneers fight amongst themselves?
If there are four players, does the lowest roller not get to describe anything about the room?
How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins? Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?

This has really got me going with ideas. Hmmm...

Mike

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

Yay!  FAQ Time!

* How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
I suppose canny Players will make Magic Wand of Fireballs for use by Mages only, or a +3 Sword (you can't use it, Cleric!  hah!)  Good question, though.  Maybe whoever scored the LEAST XP in that room gets FIRST pick at treasure?  Something to think about.

* Can the Fungeoneers fight amongst themselves?
If they like.  I wouldn't recommend it, though.

* If there are four players, does the lowest roller not get to describe anything about the room?
That's right. Poor fellow.

* How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
I would say a vote to cover any disputes.  And the results of this are permanent and everlasting, and logically apply to every other player.  Hopefully only kind people will play this game.

* Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
You don't get experience for treasure.  Oh, and I changed the rules for doling out Room Points.  You get as many Room Points as your Level.  Not your roll.

* Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins?
Hmm ... well, if you die, then you create a new PC.  I haven't come up with a good solution for this.  Maybe there needs to be a mapper, and you can go backwards through rooms (with a slight chance of encounter or something).

* Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
Heee ... it's all Gamist, but half-cooperative and half-competitive.  I'm hoping that the challenges require everyone to work together.  If not, I'll up the points given to people to make monsters and traps.

* What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
Well, if all the dice are tied, and no damage is done, that's fine.  You just narrate some cool conflict with no lasting results.  Thing is, someone with a higher Level will ALWAYS hurt someone with a lower Level.

* What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?
Yes.  If you're a Mage casting a spell, you say something like, "Fireball!" and you get add your Class Bonus to your dice.  This keeps mages from using swords (no Class Bonus) and fighters from throwing spells.

But I'm hoping you don't just stick to Fireball.  I'd like to see things like, "Bixby's Leperous Fingers of Poking!"

_________________
Zak
http://mailto:zak@mimir.net">zak@mimir.net
http://zaknet.tripod.com/hmouse">Harlekin-Maus Games

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:53 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:54 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Zak Arntson on 2001-11-13 15:55 ]

[Mike Holmes]

The problem that I have is that I see a group playing this competitively. Certainly they don't have to, but given the nature of the material as presented, I think that'll happen a lot. And the game is not balanced for it.

On 2001-11-13 15:50, Zak Arntson wrote:
Yay!  FAQ Time!

* How do you decide who gets the treasure after the room is cleared?
I suppose canny Players will make Magic Wand of Fireballs for use by Mages only, or a +3 Sword (you can't use it, Cleric!  hah!)  Good question, though.  Maybe whoever scored the LEAST XP in that room gets FIRST pick at treasure?  Something to think about.

I kinda like this one. The players have to get along and figure out an even distribution, or they fight. Howsabout making it all based on turns. Perhaps a player can have his PC duck out of a fight early to pick up a treasure. So on a turn you can:
-fight
-mess with something annoying
-pick something (unguarded, untrapped) up

something along these lines.

* How do you know if a class bonus counts? Honor? Vote of players?
I would say a vote to cover any disputes.  And the results of this are permanent and everlasting, and logically apply to every other player.  Hopefully only kind people will play this game.

Kind? You mean they're on their honor?

* Why wouldn't I always save my high roll for treasure and spend the low roll for monsters?
You don't get experience for treasure.  Oh, and I changed the rules for doling out Room Points.  You get as many Room Points as your Level.  Not your roll.

Well, that's somewhat of an improvement. It still means that the party is better off with more Fungeoneers. And, again, the Gamist strategy would be to make wimpy monsters with lots of treasure until you got way more powerful, and then you would take on the stuff that was worth more exp.

No balance of monsters against levels either. If we have four 3rd level characters that's way more powerful than the worst ten sided dice worth of monsters, not to mention six siders (which are in greater supply).

* Is there a "return to the inn" rule? If I am at two hits (and all out of healing: damn you george for making that last room so lethal!)), I won't want to go into the next room. Or is this where the game ends, highest level wins?
Hmm ... well, if you die, then you create a new PC.  I haven't come up with a good solution for this.  Maybe there needs to be a mapper, and you can go backwards through rooms (with a slight chance of encounter or something).

Oh, yes, please, please, please, please, can we make maps on quadrille? No, seriously. I love, making maps. Maybe roll for room size and have bigger rooms have a modifier to the thwak-0 rolls. And, yes, you must have a wandering monster rule. Perhaps accumulate wandering monster points that represent levels that you must encounter (treasureless) before leaving the fungeon. Something like that. So players have to figure out their point of no return. Play would be all about pushing your luck. Cool.

* Or add all the players levels together for collaborative play? Or is it not supposed to be Gamist at all (hard to believe)?
Heee ... it's all Gamist, but half-cooperative and half-competitive.  I'm hoping that the challenges require everyone to work together.  If not, I'll up the points given to people to make monsters and traps.

Not just up, but balance against the level of the PCs somehow. Just like in that other game. Oh, and don't forget the stairway to lower levels where each room's contents are multiplied by the number of the level. Lotsa cool mechanics possible here.

* What if all ones rolled did no damage? Makes it possible to miss a lesser foe (though still unlikely).
Well, if all the dice are tied, and no damage is done, that's fine.  You just narrate some cool conflict with no lasting results.  Thing is, someone with a higher Level will ALWAYS hurt someone with a lower Level.

That's my point. Seems arbitrarily harsh to the weaklings. The ones rule would give them at least a miniscule chance. Ooh, and if you roll all ones you do a point to yourself. FUMBLE! C'mon, ya gotta have a fumble rule. And dice that are maxes that are uncancelled by ties should do two points: crit hits!

* What about Mhacick? Do you just describe your rolls with magical effects?
Yes.  If you're a Mage casting a spell, you say something like, "Fireball!" and you get add your Class Bonus to your dice.  This keeps mages from using swords (no Class Bonus) and fighters from throwing spells.

But I'm hoping you don't just stick to Fireball.  I'd like to see things like, "Bixby's Leperous Fingers of Poking!"

Hmmm. I'm seeing expansion packs. Isn't this how Steve Jackson got started? :wink:

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-13 16:34, Mike Holmes wrote:
The problem that I have is that I see a group playing this competitively. Certainly they don't have to, but given the nature of the material as presented, I think that'll happen a lot. And the game is not balanced for it.

Yeah. I think it's geared more towards cooperative play.  But then, I need an element of competition or else no one would make monsters.  Hrmm ... I think emphasizing experience for Combat and Traps sould help here.

The players have to get along and figure out an even distribution, or they fight. Howsabout making it all based on turns. Perhaps a player can have his PC duck out of a fight early to pick up a treasure. So on a turn you can:
-fight
-mess with something annoying
-pick something (unguarded, untrapped) up

My answer to this dilemma would be something simpler.  Like the weakest player gets first choice after combat.  I'll let individual groups work out anything more complicated, and submit them as house rules.

Kind? You mean they're on their honor?

Yup.  I'll come up with a better way to settle rules disputes.

No balance of monsters against levels either. If we have four 3rd level characters that's way more powerful ...

Yeah, I probably should balance the points out a little better.  Maybe you add up everyone's levels and 1/2 goes to Monsters, 1/2 goes to traps, and 1/2 goes to Treasure?  Whatever it is, it has to be quick and allow for smooth Room to Room transition.

Oh, yes, please, please, please, please, can we make maps on quadrille? No, seriously. I love, making maps. Maybe roll for room size and have bigger rooms have a modifier to the thwak-0 rolls.

I wouldn't apply modifiers to rolls based on rooms, but I will definitely include mapmaking as standard.  Whoever creates the Room will draw it on the map.  Oh and I'll also include wandering monsters ...

Not just up, but balance against the level of the PCs somehow. Just like in that other game. Oh, and don't forget the stairway to lower levels where each room's contents are multiplied by the number of the level. Lotsa cool mechanics possible here.

I think the PC Levels are good enough for this.  There should maybe be a general rule that when a PC goes up a Level, there's a stairway in the next room?

That's my point. Seems arbitrarily harsh to the weaklings. The ones rule would give them at least a miniscule chance. Ooh, and if you roll all ones you do a point to yourself. FUMBLE! C'mon, ya gotta have a fumble rule. And dice that are maxes that are uncancelled by ties should do two points: crit hits!

Too many mechanics!!  (In fact, I'm thinking about simplifying Fungeon a little more ...) A Fumble is just a really bad roll.  Crits are just really good rolls.  No special rules. I like the arbitrarily harsh rule, since the Monsters are discriminated against.  However, I would playtest this game before making any absolute decisions.  

Hmmm. I'm seeing expansion packs. Isn't this how Steve Jackson got started? :wink:

Just wait until Clinton and I finish up Donjon Krawl.  It'll be a viable alternative to D&D.  Action-packed, humorous and way better mechanics than Fungeon (though Donjon Krawl DOES require a Donjonmaster).

[Mike Holmes]

Sounds like a blast. I'm sure you'll get it all straight in the end. I may play me a solo game later to test it. I can't promise that I won't be introducing some house rules, however. :wink:

Mike

[Mike Holmes]

OK, going through a mental game I come to a point wher the rules aren't perfectly clear. Your combat example is one on one. Lets say were two on two. Is it still only the very highest roller that gets to do damage? Even if both characters roll higher than both monsters? Or vice versa? Or do you pair off into separate fights? If so, how do you determine who gets what opponents?

I see that you have made the number of points spent Fungeoneering a room as always equal to the rollers level. This is more balanced, but lacks a random element. How about having a pool on entering a room equal to the total of the levels of all players entering. The player with the highest Thwack-o gets to decide on how many of those points to take (limited by twice their level), and then rolls randomly to see which of the three things he must make.

Thus if I roll highest with my 3rd level Ratcatcher (in a party with three third level characters) I can choose to take from one to six of the levels. I select two options Treasure and Room. Even I get my first choice, odd I get my second. The second highest Thwack-o roller rolls between the remaining two, and the last guy must do the last option if any dice remain.

I know, too complicated.

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-13 18:00, Mike Holmes wrote:
OK, going through a mental game I come to a point wher the rules aren't perfectly clear. Your combat example is one on one. Lets say were two on two. Is it still only the very highest roller that gets to do damage? Even if both characters roll higher than both monsters? Or vice versa? Or do you pair off into separate fights? If so, how do you determine who gets what opponents?

I should've been clearer.  EVERYONE compares their rolls at once.  It's kind of a big brawl.  So if you have three people, and they roll:
A. 8,3,2,1,1
B. 4,5,2
C. 6,2,2,2

If we say that C's Thwack-O Die was highest, then C gets to narrate the round of combat.  Each little swing goes like this:
1. A gets to hurt B or C (8 > 4, 8 > 6)
2. B gets to hurt A or C (5 > 3, 5 > 2)
3. Tie, which means nobody hurts anybody (2 = 2 = 2)
4. C gets to hurt A or B (2 > 1, 2 > 0)
5. A gets to hurt B or C (1 > 0, 1 > 0)

I see that you have made the number of points spent Fungeoneering a room as always equal to the rollers level. This is more balanced, but lacks a random element. How about having a pool on entering a room equal to the total of the levels of all players entering. The player with the highest Thwack-o gets to decide on how many of those points to take (limited by twice their level), and then rolls randomly to see which of the three things he must make.

The random element comes in with the players keeping their creation secret.  It's not random, but you don't know what the other players are going to do.

I'm still trying to hammer out the Room Pool.  I'll work on it later and let y'all know.

I know, too complicated.

Too complicated for me!  If you like more rules, I won't stop you!

[Mike Holmes]

I understand the examples that you have. And I assume from them that what side you are on makes no difference from your example. But what this means is that a player who rolls higher than his buddy is preventing his buddy from doing damage that he might have dome if he were alone. This seems counterintuitive.

Fungeoneer A (lvl 4 using class bonus): 8,7,5,4,3,2
Fungeoneer B (lvl 4 using class bonus): 7,6,5,4,3,2

Monster A (lvl 2): 10,1
Monster B (lvl 2): 9,2

OK, heres what happens from my reading of the rules. Monster A does a point of damage (presumably the target is selected by the creator of the monsters?) Monster B, though he rolled more than the Fungeoneers does nothing as his roll was not highest. Next round Fungeoneer A does one point giving it to Monster A. Fungeoneer B does no damage as his roll was not highest. Rounds 3-6: no damage as the rolls were ties between Fungeoneer A and B, and ties for highest do no damage.

What? Were they stumbling over each other to get to the monsters? Seems punitive for no particular reason. Perhaps they can pair off and run their own combats individually. Or do you intend to keep the rules as written and have the above example remain true?

Mike

[Nathan]

Good stuff there!

I still have a copy of an old TSR board game simply called DUNGEON!, which was the same style. I would suggest "borrowing" from that with the following:

Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out, so that the entrance of the dungeon, town, castle, or whatever is clear. Players can branch off into different rooms, battling different creatures and so on. Basically, the point here is that you be the adventurer with the MOST treasure on exit. (Perhaps there will be a total game turn limit - 40 turns or adventurers still stuck in the dungeon are suddenly devoured by the dragon...) Adventurers can leave early or wait the full game time - but once a room has been explored, new monsters or treasure do not appear there.

Then here is another idea:

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out. The group of players can participate in determining who this villain is and why they are taking him out -- or they can download a scenario that someone else wrote with special rules or dangers. Maybe on a certain roll while exploring determines whether they find the villain or not? I dunno about that...

Wow -- this is some good stuff though. Keep up the good work, Zak.... If you want to develop this more, I'd say build more examples and some charts to help guide room creation, monster creation, and so on. Also, you might consider creating encounter charts and stuff for the weak-minded... What may be the best about this is that it is very flexible.

Thanks,
Nathan

[Mike Holmes]

On 2001-11-14 09:48, Nathan wrote:
Good stuff there!

I still have a copy of an old TSR board game simply called DUNGEON!, which was the same style. I would suggest "borrowing" from that with the following:

Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out, so that the entrance of the dungeon, town, castle, or whatever is clear. Players can branch off into different rooms, battling different creatures and so on. Basically, the point here is that you be the adventurer with the MOST treasure on exit. (Perhaps there will be a total game turn limit - 40 turns or adventurers still stuck in the dungeon are suddenly devoured by the dragon...) Adventurers can leave early or wait the full game time - but once a room has been explored, new monsters or treasure do not appear there.

Why not just play Dungeon. I have a copy. What makes Fungeon unique is that the dungeon will be different each time. Wouldn't dare take that part away. And it's unnecessary to do so for competitive play. I like HP as a limit better than some arbitrary time limit.

Then here is another idea:

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out. The group of players can participate in determining who this villain is and why they are taking him out -- or they can download a scenario that someone else wrote with special rules or dangers. Maybe on a certain roll while exploring determines whether they find the villain or not? I dunno about that...

That I like. I assumed that people would make fun room descriptions for players to download for ideas. As far as the villain idea, that would make an interesting alternate ending point. I suggest several methods of ending that the players should decide upon before entering. Treasure hunt - go as long as you can and get as much treasure as you can. Villain Hunt - go until you find the villain and destroy him. Magic Hunt - find the dingus of power and return it. Rescue - find a person and return them alive (watch out for the wandering moinsters gunning for the rescuee on the way out). Delivery - take a letter or magic item to some place in the Fungeon. Get a reward for successful completion.

I'm wondering what kind of possibilities there are for campaign play. Perhaps you have living expenses that depend on your level between expeditions to the Fungeon. Run out of treasure and loose Hits due to starvation? Hmmm...

Mike

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-14 09:18, Mike Holmes wrote:
Fungeoneer A (lvl 4 using class bonus): 8,7,5,4,3,2
Fungeoneer B (lvl 4 using class bonus): 7,6,5,4,3,2

Monster A (lvl 2): 10,1
Monster B (lvl 2): 9,2

Rounds 3-6: no damage as the rolls were ties between Fungeoneer A and B, and ties for highest do no damage.

Or do you intend to keep the rules as written and have the above example remain true?

Hee ... well, since the chances of rolling 8 dice, and getting 4 pairs seems pretty low, I'm not too concerned about it.  And yeah, I am going to leave it true.  I really like the idea of swapping blows, one at a time.  To introduce player vs. monster rolls is too complicated.  Much better as a big brouhaha.

[Nathan]

On 2001-11-14 12:30, Mike Holmes wrote:
Why not just play Dungeon. I have a copy. What makes Fungeon unique is that the dungeon will be different each time. Wouldn't dare take that part away. And it's unnecessary to do so for competitive play. I like HP as a limit better than some arbitrary time limit.

Sorry - you misunderstood me. As the players go and explore rooms, they need to mark it down on the paper so that they eventually have to return back to the front again. Yes keep the random rooms - that is awesome. But I'm just saying if the race is to get in and get out with the most loot - don't they need to remember how to get out?

Thanks,
Nathan Hill

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-11-14 09:48, Nathan wrote:
Competitive Play:
This requires that the dungeon ultimately be MAPPED out ...

Dynamic dungeon-creation is integral to Fungeon; I don't have an plans for pre-mapped play.  This wouldn't stop you from using a jumble of pre-made room tiles or something.  Remember the old Warhammer Quest (I think it was called)? You could just mix all those room tiles up and pick the one you liked when it was your turn.

Solo or Cooperative Play:
Use scenarios -- Beforehand, create a major villain with a special power or powers. The point is to find the villain and take him out.

The Villain option is pretty durn cool.  It would cause some tension and anticipation.  I'm gonna stick this one in.

Wow -- this is some good stuff though. Keep up the good work, Zak.... If you want to develop this more,  ...

I'm going to develop this a little more, as in a webpage at Harlekin-Maus.  I don't want to include any charts, since I want the whole game to be up to the players.  Solo play is pretty much out, but there may be a Onegeon game in the future ...

Thanks for the kind words!