Social Reinforcement in Capes

[TonyLB]

Over in the Linked Conflicts thread,

You can certainly do things just to poke other players in the eye, but the last thing you want in a Capes game is for the other players to think you are nothing more than a big jerk.  Once that happens, things get very ugly for you.

I'm interested to hear what people think about this.  I'm not at all sure that I agree with it as stated.  But maybe I'm not understanding.  I look at it and that "other player think you are nothing more than a big jerk" thing leaps out at me.  Because I totally play to be a big jerk, and people seem to eat it up with a spoon, which may mean that I am being a big jerk plus some critical other element that makes it work.

[Vaxalon]

Tony, you may TRY to be a big jerk, but your enthusiasm is so infectious that you completely, utterly, totally fail at it.

[Sindyr]

Over in the Linked Conflicts thread,

You can certainly do things just to poke other players in the eye, but the last thing you want in a Capes game is for the other players to think you are nothing more than a big jerk.  Once that happens, things get very ugly for you.

I'm interested to hear what people think about this.  I'm not at all sure that I agree with it as stated.  But maybe I'm not understanding.  I look at it and that "other player think you are nothing more than a big jerk" thing leaps out at me.  Because I totally play to be a big jerk, and people seem to eat it up with a spoon, which may mean that I am being a big jerk plus some critical other element that makes it work.

Also possibly true: Gaming groups come in flavors, and what is socially acceptable (or evene expected) in one may get you kicked out of another.

So being a big jerk in one may be avidly encouraged while acting the same way in another may result in a lot of downcast eyes and everyone looking uncomfortable.

On the other hand, another factor to consider is that what the original poster meant by "big jerk" and what you mean may be completely different.

[Sindyr]

PS.  Another potential factor: you specifically, Tony, may get special treatment from other players that know you are the author of the game.

[jburneko]

Tony,

I think what we're really talking about here is sportsmanship.  You and probably most people, have a really good grasp of what is being a good sport.  So, yes, being a total jerk *within the context of playing the game.*  is both expected and appreciated.  If we were playing monopoly and you know I've been eyeing Park Place for several rounds now and I'm just waiting for my chance to land on it, but then you land on it first and snap it up with a big malicious grin on your face, I may cry out, "Oh you big jerk!"  but you haven't hurt me personally and in some ways you've even deepened my experience of the game by playing with intensity.

What Syndr and others keep talking about when they refer to players being a jerk is not the sportsmanship kind of jerk but the personal hurtful kind of jerk.  The guy who boasts about how perfect his marriage is constantly in front of his friend who just went through a messy divorce.  The dude who takes someone who was sexually assaulted last week out to horror movie featuring several scenes of graphic rape.  That kind of jerk.

There's a big difference between these two things: Knowing that I'm sensitive about teenage girls and thus when playing Capes you put teenage girls in danger all the time because you know I'll get fired up vs. my kid sister was kidnapped and never found and so any time teenage girls in danger comes up you're poking forks in my personal trauma.  One is cool, the other is not.

Here I've gone to some rather extreme examples.  I don't think you need that level of personal trauma I've described here to have the kind of personal wounding reaction.  However, I think someone WITHOUT that kind of personal trauma who has that kind of personal wounding reaction to certain things needs to seriously re-evaluate themselves, but that's a different topic.

Make sense?

Jesse

[Hans]

I'm interested to hear what people think about this.  I'm not at all sure that I agree with it as stated.  But maybe I'm not understanding.  I look at it and that "other player think you are nothing more than a big jerk" thing leaps out at me.  Because I totally play to be a big jerk, and people seem to eat it up with a spoon, which may mean that I am being a big jerk plus some critical other element that makes it work.

May I suggest that is the word "nothing" that is most important in this statement.  Its one thing to be a big jerk, if you are also constantly putting out interesting, exciting and cool stuff in the game that moves things forward.  Its another to be a big jerk, and also does nothing to keep the game going as well.  

Additionally, Capes may be the only RPG where the concept of "sportsmanship" has any real meaning. I would argue, Tony, that you are a hard, tough, experienced player, who pushes people to their limits because you think it is fun to do so, and in your experience it results in the most rewarding game play.  You may feel like this is being a big jerk, but maybe its just playing the game much better than anyone else.  You are the designer, it should come as no surprise you play your own game well.  I suggest that people like to play with you because you are a good sport about it; they never get the sense it is "personal".

[Hans]

I think what we're really talking about here is sportsmanship.  You and probably most people, have a really good grasp of what is being a good sport. 

*&(&#$(*&#$(*&#$#!  That is the SECOND time you have beaten me to the punch, Jesse.  Did I mention you were dead to me?

[Glendower]

There's a difference between being a complete asshat and being competitive.  Anyone who's played in a sport can tell you that it's one thing to be soundly beaten, but another to be soundly beaten by a grinning, mocking, jackass.  

The problem at times is that there are people out there that don't know the difference between the two.  They consider competition to be a hideous thing, detrimental to friends and gatherings.  So even if you beat a person and be very cool about it, they'll still throw a tantrum, toss down their racket (I play tennis a bit) and storm away.  

It's a case of sore losers and sore winners.  Either type make me roll my eyes.

[Sindyr]

Perhaps we could use an example to help us define and discover who is being a good sport and who is being a jerk.

If address the group, and I say, "I will be bringing in my new character Captain Good - he's going to be my 2nd spotlight character - Julie Jones being my first.  Actually, he and Julie are in a relationship - and guys, I would appreciate it if their relationship is left untouched by all - I will not put any resources to defending it, but if anyone messes with their bond I may well quit the game - its that serious to me.  Also, last week we had some pretty graphicly narrated torture scenes that made me queasy, so I am going to ask everyone to avoid torture, if that's ok.  Again, don't throw down torture Conflicts because I won't fight you for them, I will probably just throw up on you."

At this point, if anyone tries to narrate or create conflicts that threaten to cause Julie and the Captain to fall out of love, or if anyone brings torture into the game, this I think is clearly Bad Sportsmanship, and the one that does is a jerk.

Agree?

[Sindyr]

There's a difference between being a complete asshat and being competitive.  Anyone who's played in a sport can tell you that it's one thing to be soundly beaten, but another to be soundly beaten by a grinning, mocking, jackass. 

The problem at times is that there are people out there that don't know the difference between the two.  They consider competition to be a hideous thing, detrimental to friends and gatherings.  So even if you beat a person and be very cool about it, they'll still throw a tantrum, toss down their racket (I play tennis a bit) and storm away. 

It's a case of sore losers and sore winners.  Either type make me roll my eyes.

I hope you do not equate a sore loser with someone who rightfully throws a fit when someone narrates a rape scene, when she has herself been raped.

If one cannot respect the human limits of the other players, one is a loser to being with, IMO.

[Eric Sedlacek]

"other player think you are nothing more than a big jerk"

That's rather funny because I first wrote it without the "nothing more" and realized the sentence needed it.  

[TonyLB]

If one cannot respect the human limits of the other players, one is a loser to being with, IMO.

Sindyr, your continued grinding of this personal ax is getting in the way of people who want to discuss anything else.

You've made your point.  Everyone knows how you feel.  Now is the time for you to stop.

[Eric Sedlacek]

There's a difference between being a complete asshat and being competitive.  Anyone who's played in a sport can tell you that it's one thing to be soundly beaten, but another to be soundly beaten by a grinning, mocking, jackass.  

Well, Tony has been known to mock, and, well, you'd have better luck stopping the Cheshire Cat from grinning.

It's a case of sore losers and sore winners.  Either type make me roll my eyes.

Tony is unfailingly gracious in both victory and defeat in fair competition.

[Sindyr]

If one cannot respect the human limits of the other players, one is a loser to being with, IMO.

Sindyr, your continued grinding of this personal ax is getting in the way of people who want to discuss anything else.

You've made your point.  Everyone knows how you feel.  Now is the time for you to stop.

So when a pertinent and relevant thread is started, everyone should feel free to contribute except me? lol.

My response is directly on topic and relevant.  Have I made similar responses before on other threads?  Probably.  Have others made similar response to what *they* types on this thread? Probably.

If you don't want people posting certain opinions and ideas that you don't like, I believe as the originator of the thread, you *do* have the right to frame the thread that way - however, you did not.

This thread seems to be about discussing Social Reinforcement and how and why people are seen to be in violation of it, called humorously "big jerks".

Perhaps if you could state what responses to this subject are forbidden and considered off-topic by you?

For now, I am going to assume that helping to define what breaks the social contract in various kinds of groups and causes one to be a "big jerk" is *on* topic.

[Sindyr]

Tony is unfailingly gracious in both victory and defeat in fair competition.

I can't help picturing a gracious, suave, well-manered, and polite Tony tipping his hat gentlemanly to the other players at his table - traumatized, broken shells of human beings, left in Tony's wake...

*kidding*!!

(Well the image did spring to my mind, but I can't imagine the players he plays with to be less durable than him)