Previous Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

6/3/2003 Walt Freitag: Exploration of System (split)
Split from the Beeg Horseshoe Revisited thread: This topic appeared unresolved but it's tangled among other topics in the original thread. This is an attempted rescue. I agree that "fidelity…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Walt Freitag, C. Edwards, clehrich, ADGBoss, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, Valamir, Mike Holmes, John Kim, cruciel, M. J. Young, Emily Care, lumpley.

6/2/2003 lumpley: Fidelity vs. Integrity
Here's an attempt to break apart and clarify this newfangled "fidelity" word. Characters, Settings, Systems, and probably the other two have integrity. Integrity is something you either uphold or compromise…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: lumpley, C. Edwards, John Kim, cruciel, Mike Holmes, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, Cassidy.

6/1/2003 Bankuei: Is this really Nar?
Hi folks, Jason wrote this in the Beeg Horseshoe thread, and I wanted to address his concerns: Let's think of a Genevieve example, 'cause the Vieve-ster always has something interesting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Bankuei, cruciel, jdagna, M. J. Young, talysman, John Kim, Ron Edwards, Gordon C. Landis, Mike Holmes.

6/1/2003 Piers Brown: Questions about the Fidelity Axis (From Horseshoe 2)
As a follow-up to the Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6663): The idea of a separate Fidelity axis is pretty persuasive. The close parallel between it and Sim, however, gives…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Piers Brown, Bankuei, Mike Holmes, cruciel, M. J. Young, John Kim, Alan, Ron Edwards.

5/30/2003 cruciel: Hi-Fi or Sim Poll (split from Horseshoe 2)
I'm really curious about something as it relates to the Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited thread. That said, I was just going to say to Jason that I too tend…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Valamir, Mike Holmes, Paul Czege.

5/29/2003 Matt Gwinn: Cheaters & GNS
This may also fit into theory. I was wondering where cheating fits into GNS. What style of play encourages or facilitates fudging die rolls, changing stats, etc.? I suspect it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Matt Gwinn, cruciel, C. Edwards, Wormwood, Valamir, John Kim, Alan, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, Scratchware.

5/29/2003 Wormwood: Technical Play and the one word GNS
In an earlier thread I suggested that the three GNS modes seem describably by what questions are asked by the player making the decision. I find however, that while this…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, jdagna, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited
Fine, Ralph wants to put out that I've got some half-assed unformed theory working? I'll play along. Besides this has been eating away at me for so long that maybe…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, clehrich, Valamir, Matt Wilson, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, talysman, ethan_greer, C. Edwards, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Gordon C. Landis, Wormwood, Cassidy.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Applicability of Game Theory
[quote="Walt Freitag"]Game theory has no problem with different players placing different values on different aspects of the outcome. But it requires all that information -- that is, the payoff for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, deadpanbob, Wormwood, epweissengruber, Jeffrey Miller.

5/28/2003 Ron Edwards: The airplane issue
Hello, From the thread The problem with GNS, I was able to extract a single question of worth: "Heinrich" wrote, I have to wonder what the value of GNS and…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Jeffrey Straszheim, Matt Snyder, Kester Pelagius, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, Matt Wilson, jrs, Wormwood, epweissengruber, jdagna, deadpanbob, ethan_greer, Jeffrey Miller, Mike Holmes, Walt Freitag, Piers Brown, Gordon C. Landis, clehrich, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Valamir, Paul Czege.

5/27/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Hybrids - looking for an understanding of
I've been thinking about what a hybrid is lately, particularly after Decision Merging: An Appoach to Hybridization. What it mostly inspired in me is confusion over what a hybrid…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, clehrich, MK Snyder, Wormwood, Mike Holmes, cruciel, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Valamir.

5/26/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Term debate: "Instance of Play"
One of the core concepts is instance of play since it is over and instance of play that GNS behaviors are observable. The problem is that it have a connotation…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/25/2003 heinrich: The Problem With GNS
Within the constellation of arguments in favor of the GNS model, the contrast between simulationism and gamism comes to mind as a problematic example that highlights the problem with the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: heinrich, ethan_greer, Alan, clehrich, M. J. Young, jdagna, Jeffrey Miller, Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Garbanzo, Valamir, epweissengruber, Christopher Kubasik, talysman, Ron Edwards.

5/23/2003 clehrich: Cr.Ag., GNS, BV, and Other Acronyms
In a lengthy series of recent threads, there has been debate about various possible "new" models and, among other things, their relationship to GNS. I could quote extensively; instead I'm…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: clehrich, lumpley, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, John Kim, Valamir, cruciel, Eric J-D, M. J. Young, Matt Snyder, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes.

5/22/2003 ThreeGee: Pan-reward-ism
Hey all, We have been over (and are still going over) some of this before, but I want to try a different spin on the topic. There are hardly any…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: ThreeGee, Ron Edwards, clehrich, M. J. Young, cruciel, John Kim, C. Edwards.

5/22/2003 epweissengruber: Kewl Powerz -- Emphasizing "Kewl"
Kewl powers are also an important part of color. Some players like to imagine their characters doing neat/cool/groovy things and don't always think about how those powers can get them…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: epweissengruber.

5/21/2003 taalyn: Narrativism and Morality?
It seems that the primary method of explaining Narrativism is in terms of moral and/or ethical decisions. Why is that, and why isn't the style renamed to be less opaque?…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, Mike Holmes, talysman, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, M. J. Young.

5/19/2003 iago: The Three Sentence Understanding
I've read (or tried to read) the GNS articles, and I don't honestly feel like I've come away from them all that much more enlightened about it all. A major…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: iago, Bankuei, talysman, M. J. Young, Wormwood, jburneko, ThreeGee, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/19/2003 Wormwood: Drumming II (split)
I'd actually think more in terms of a tuba, but that's just the brass player in me. This sort of behavior, especially in the context of what Mario said about…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Ron Edwards.

5/18/2003 Wormwood: Decision Merging: An Appoach to Hybridization
First, a little history: A while back there was a cyberpunk based CCG called Netrunner, put out by WotC using the same information property as Cyberpunk 2020. This game had…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes.

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Subsequent Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

6/5/2003 C. Edwards: System, Fidelity, and Points of Contact
I’ve never really been able to see System as being Explored so much as ‘breaching’ the imaginary space. But my ‘transparency’ threshold is pretty low. For me, every Point of…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: C. Edwards, ethan_greer, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, lumpley.

6/8/2003 taalyn: GNS detractors and Social Contract
There was a huge debate this last week on the yahoo group RPGcreate. One particular person was quite vociferous about his opposition to GNS theory (and included standard rants about…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, C. Edwards, Alan, Sidhain, jburneko, John Kim, jdagna, ejh, Valamir, Caldis, Bankuei, Marco.

6/10/2003 quozl: Black Fire / Black Blood
Before reading the Gamism essay ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/ ) and the example game ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/22/ ), I found the presence of the GM to be problematic for purely gamist games. Now,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: quozl, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young, Bankuei, Valamir, contracycle, epweissengruber.

6/11/2003 Wormwood: Genre Simulation
Recently I've realized one of my problems with the NS barrier lies in the fact that I have a tendency to design games to simulate the genre, rather than emulate…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Gordon C. Landis, Jack Spencer Jr, Shreyas Sampat, John Kim, M. J. Young.

6/11/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
I have been thinking about the whole issue of Simulationism issue, the question on whether that particular box exists, and how this applies to hybrids. Here's what I've come up…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, contracycle, Cassidy, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, taalyn, Ian Charvill.

6/13/2003 Robert Calder: Using character backstory to assist with coherent play
Greetings, I have been lurking at The Forge recently. This is my first post – I’ve been exploring the ‘net of late, trying to find knowledge to help me understand…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Robert Calder, Bankuei, Paul Czege.

6/13/2003 anonymouse: the Gamist Hard Question.
(side note 1: 'NIMBY' probably should've gone in the Glossary. the only reason I recognised it was from reading SimCity manuals over the years) (side note 2: how long has…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: anonymouse, Alan, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, Lxndr, contracycle, M. J. Young.

6/13/2003 Swamplor: Gamism Essay Reaction
Arright, I've been lurking here far too long, time to post something... So I read Ron's Gamism essay and the accompanying sample game and something struck me. Actually, nothign struck…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Swamplor, Ron Edwards.

6/14/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Play outside of either G, N or S modes
I've been thinking a bit about the limitations of GNS theory. Namely, are there any identifiable meta-game priorities that are outside of the model that could lead to functional play?…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, jdagna, Christopher Kubasik, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Alan, Bankuei, Emily Care, contracycle.

6/14/2003 Jeff Klein: T&T knife-twisting
I was reading Ron's Black Fire and came across his note on "Twisting the Knife": Design notes: I always wanted a mechanic like this in Games like…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jeff Klein, ejh, Ron Edwards.

6/15/2003 Cassidy: A 'Step On Up' Question
[quote="From Gamism Essay"]The players, armed with their understanding of the game and their strategic acumen, have to Step On Up. Step On Up requires strategizing, guts, and performance from the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Cassidy, Ron Edwards.

6/16/2003 taalyn: GNS and metagame machanix
Many games have mechanics that support one mode of GNS play. Victory points, hero points, and the like for gamist criteria, and Luck or points to manipulate the story for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, jdagna, Shreyas Sampat, M. J. Young, John Kim, demiurgeastaroth, contracycle, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

6/17/2003 Nick Pagnucco: Gamist case study attempt
I remember a thread (specifically a few posts within it) a while back about the use of GNS. The concluding argument was that the use of GNS is analytical; it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Nick Pagnucco, Ron Edwards.

6/17/2003 demiurgeastaroth: Anti-Gamist, or Pro-what?
I enjoyed the gamist essay, but one thing Ron said puzzles me. And, completely differently, "balance" is often invoked as an anti-Gamist play defense, specifically in terms of not permitting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: demiurgeastaroth, Bankuei, jdagna, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Wormwood.

6/18/2003 Le Joueur: No More Incoherence! - A Rant
Hey there, First off, let me apologize that this may be quite likely the last thing I ever post here, my life recently having been turned upside down (in the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Le Joueur, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Anon LeBlanc, Bankuei, ethan_greer, Marco, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jake Norwood, C. Edwards, Green, Valamir, cruciel, Matt Snyder, contracycle, WDFlores, xiombarg.

6/18/2003 Marco: Gamist Essay -- GOOD!
This isn't a post with a hella-lot of content--but I got finished with the gamist essay and ... it's *good!* The split of the challenge sections is insightful. The language…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Marco, Ron Edwards, Ted E. Childers, xiombarg, Mike Holmes.

6/18/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Incoherent kit-bashing
From this thread What always puzzles me is that people who assert that incoherent game design is a good thing, because apparently it's desirable to tinker rules to taste,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Marco, Mike Holmes, Valamir, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, contracycle.

6/21/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Gamist design invites repetition?
I was fiddling with some old video games when I noticed that it was doing the same thing over and over. This is not to say there isn't variety to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Christopher Kubasik, jdagna, Mike Holmes, WDFlores, damion, John Kim, Marco.

7/1/2003 Tony Irwin: Resolution in sim games
I really enjoyed M J Young's article and have been thinking a lot about how sim games work/could work. I got some great respones in this thread when I was…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Tony Irwin, M. J. Young, jdagna, RobMuadib.

7/3/2003 TempUser: Comments on Gamism: Step On Up
This is my first post on www.indie-rpgs.com in a long time, and likely my last post on PnP rpgs in any forum for the foreseeable future. I had wanted to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: TempUser, Clinton R. Nixon, Ron Edwards, ethan_greer.

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