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In GNS Model Discussion

6/11/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
I have been thinking about the whole issue of Simulationism issue, the question on whether that particular box exists, and how this applies to hybrids. Here's what I've come up…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, contracycle, Cassidy, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, taalyn, Ian Charvill.

6/11/2003 Wormwood: Genre Simulation
Recently I've realized one of my problems with the NS barrier lies in the fact that I have a tendency to design games to simulate the genre, rather than emulate…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Gordon C. Landis, Jack Spencer Jr, Shreyas Sampat, John Kim, M. J. Young.

6/10/2003 quozl: Black Fire / Black Blood
Before reading the Gamism essay ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/ ) and the example game ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/22/ ), I found the presence of the GM to be problematic for purely gamist games. Now,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: quozl, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young, Bankuei, Valamir, contracycle, epweissengruber.

6/8/2003 taalyn: GNS detractors and Social Contract
There was a huge debate this last week on the yahoo group RPGcreate. One particular person was quite vociferous about his opposition to GNS theory (and included standard rants about…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, C. Edwards, Alan, Sidhain, jburneko, John Kim, jdagna, ejh, Valamir, Caldis, Bankuei, Marco.

6/5/2003 C. Edwards: System, Fidelity, and Points of Contact
I’ve never really been able to see System as being Explored so much as ‘breaching’ the imaginary space. But my ‘transparency’ threshold is pretty low. For me, every Point of…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: C. Edwards, ethan_greer, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, lumpley.

6/4/2003 Ron Edwards: GNS and design (split from Site Discussion)
Hi there, Sylus wrote, in the Does GNS cloud Indie Design thread, Where do you feel if at all GNS could help in design? Or do you feel it is…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Sylus Thane, ethan_greer, M. J. Young, Emmett, WDFlores, Paganini, Mike Holmes, Wormwood, jdagna.

6/3/2003 Walt Freitag: Exploration of System (split)
Split from the Beeg Horseshoe Revisited thread: This topic appeared unresolved but it's tangled among other topics in the original thread. This is an attempted rescue. I agree that "fidelity…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Walt Freitag, C. Edwards, clehrich, ADGBoss, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, Valamir, Mike Holmes, John Kim, cruciel, M. J. Young, Emily Care, lumpley.

6/2/2003 lumpley: Fidelity vs. Integrity
Here's an attempt to break apart and clarify this newfangled "fidelity" word. Characters, Settings, Systems, and probably the other two have integrity. Integrity is something you either uphold or compromise…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: lumpley, C. Edwards, John Kim, cruciel, Mike Holmes, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, Cassidy.

6/1/2003 Bankuei: Is this really Nar?
Hi folks, Jason wrote this in the Beeg Horseshoe thread, and I wanted to address his concerns: Let's think of a Genevieve example, 'cause the Vieve-ster always has something interesting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Bankuei, cruciel, jdagna, M. J. Young, talysman, John Kim, Ron Edwards, Gordon C. Landis, Mike Holmes.

6/1/2003 Piers Brown: Questions about the Fidelity Axis (From Horseshoe 2)
As a follow-up to the Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited thread (http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6663): The idea of a separate Fidelity axis is pretty persuasive. The close parallel between it and Sim, however, gives…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Piers Brown, Bankuei, Mike Holmes, cruciel, M. J. Young, John Kim, Alan, Ron Edwards.

5/30/2003 cruciel: Hi-Fi or Sim Poll (split from Horseshoe 2)
I'm really curious about something as it relates to the Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited thread. That said, I was just going to say to Jason that I too tend…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: cruciel, Valamir, Mike Holmes, Paul Czege.

5/29/2003 Matt Gwinn: Cheaters & GNS
This may also fit into theory. I was wondering where cheating fits into GNS. What style of play encourages or facilitates fudging die rolls, changing stats, etc.? I suspect it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Matt Gwinn, cruciel, C. Edwards, Wormwood, Valamir, John Kim, Alan, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards, Scratchware.

5/29/2003 Wormwood: Technical Play and the one word GNS
In an earlier thread I suggested that the three GNS modes seem describably by what questions are asked by the player making the decision. I find however, that while this…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, jdagna, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Beeg Horseshoe Theory Revisited
Fine, Ralph wants to put out that I've got some half-assed unformed theory working? I'll play along. Besides this has been eating away at me for so long that maybe…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, clehrich, Valamir, Matt Wilson, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, Walt Freitag, Emily Care, talysman, ethan_greer, C. Edwards, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Gordon C. Landis, Wormwood, Cassidy.

5/29/2003 Mike Holmes: Applicability of Game Theory
[quote="Walt Freitag"]Game theory has no problem with different players placing different values on different aspects of the outcome. But it requires all that information -- that is, the payoff for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mike Holmes, deadpanbob, Wormwood, epweissengruber, Jeffrey Miller.

5/28/2003 Ron Edwards: The airplane issue
Hello, From the thread The problem with GNS, I was able to extract a single question of worth: "Heinrich" wrote, I have to wonder what the value of GNS and…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Jeffrey Straszheim, Matt Snyder, Kester Pelagius, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Bankuei, Matt Wilson, jrs, Wormwood, epweissengruber, jdagna, deadpanbob, ethan_greer, Jeffrey Miller, Mike Holmes, Walt Freitag, Piers Brown, Gordon C. Landis, clehrich, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Valamir, Paul Czege.

5/27/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Hybrids - looking for an understanding of
I've been thinking about what a hybrid is lately, particularly after Decision Merging: An Appoach to Hybridization. What it mostly inspired in me is confusion over what a hybrid…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, clehrich, MK Snyder, Wormwood, Mike Holmes, cruciel, Ron Edwards, Walt Freitag, Valamir.

5/26/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Term debate: "Instance of Play"
One of the core concepts is instance of play since it is over and instance of play that GNS behaviors are observable. The problem is that it have a connotation…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Alan, Clinton R. Nixon, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

5/25/2003 heinrich: The Problem With GNS
Within the constellation of arguments in favor of the GNS model, the contrast between simulationism and gamism comes to mind as a problematic example that highlights the problem with the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: heinrich, ethan_greer, Alan, clehrich, M. J. Young, jdagna, Jeffrey Miller, Jack Spencer Jr, C. Edwards, Garbanzo, Valamir, epweissengruber, Christopher Kubasik, talysman, Ron Edwards.

5/23/2003 clehrich: Cr.Ag., GNS, BV, and Other Acronyms
In a lengthy series of recent threads, there has been debate about various possible "new" models and, among other things, their relationship to GNS. I could quote extensively; instead I'm…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: clehrich, lumpley, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, John Kim, Valamir, cruciel, Eric J-D, M. J. Young, Matt Snyder, Walt Freitag, Mike Holmes.

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Subsequent Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

6/13/2003 anonymouse: the Gamist Hard Question.
(side note 1: 'NIMBY' probably should've gone in the Glossary. the only reason I recognised it was from reading SimCity manuals over the years) (side note 2: how long has…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: anonymouse, Alan, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, Lxndr, contracycle, M. J. Young.

6/13/2003 Swamplor: Gamism Essay Reaction
Arright, I've been lurking here far too long, time to post something... So I read Ron's Gamism essay and the accompanying sample game and something struck me. Actually, nothign struck…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Swamplor, Ron Edwards.

6/14/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Play outside of either G, N or S modes
I've been thinking a bit about the limitations of GNS theory. Namely, are there any identifiable meta-game priorities that are outside of the model that could lead to functional play?…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, jdagna, Christopher Kubasik, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Alan, Bankuei, Emily Care, contracycle.

6/14/2003 Jeff Klein: T&T knife-twisting
I was reading Ron's Black Fire and came across his note on "Twisting the Knife": Design notes: I always wanted a mechanic like this in Games like…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jeff Klein, ejh, Ron Edwards.

6/15/2003 Cassidy: A 'Step On Up' Question
[quote="From Gamism Essay"]The players, armed with their understanding of the game and their strategic acumen, have to Step On Up. Step On Up requires strategizing, guts, and performance from the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Cassidy, Ron Edwards.

6/16/2003 taalyn: GNS and metagame machanix
Many games have mechanics that support one mode of GNS play. Victory points, hero points, and the like for gamist criteria, and Luck or points to manipulate the story for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, jdagna, Shreyas Sampat, M. J. Young, John Kim, demiurgeastaroth, contracycle, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

6/17/2003 Nick Pagnucco: Gamist case study attempt
I remember a thread (specifically a few posts within it) a while back about the use of GNS. The concluding argument was that the use of GNS is analytical; it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Nick Pagnucco, Ron Edwards.

6/17/2003 demiurgeastaroth: Anti-Gamist, or Pro-what?
I enjoyed the gamist essay, but one thing Ron said puzzles me. And, completely differently, "balance" is often invoked as an anti-Gamist play defense, specifically in terms of not permitting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: demiurgeastaroth, Bankuei, jdagna, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Wormwood.

6/18/2003 Le Joueur: No More Incoherence! - A Rant
Hey there, First off, let me apologize that this may be quite likely the last thing I ever post here, my life recently having been turned upside down (in the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Le Joueur, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Anon LeBlanc, Bankuei, ethan_greer, Marco, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jake Norwood, C. Edwards, Green, Valamir, cruciel, Matt Snyder, contracycle, WDFlores, xiombarg.

6/18/2003 Marco: Gamist Essay -- GOOD!
This isn't a post with a hella-lot of content--but I got finished with the gamist essay and ... it's *good!* The split of the challenge sections is insightful. The language…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Marco, Ron Edwards, Ted E. Childers, xiombarg, Mike Holmes.

6/18/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Incoherent kit-bashing
From this thread What always puzzles me is that people who assert that incoherent game design is a good thing, because apparently it's desirable to tinker rules to taste,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Marco, Mike Holmes, Valamir, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, contracycle.

6/21/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Gamist design invites repetition?
I was fiddling with some old video games when I noticed that it was doing the same thing over and over. This is not to say there isn't variety to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Christopher Kubasik, jdagna, Mike Holmes, WDFlores, damion, John Kim, Marco.

7/1/2003 Tony Irwin: Resolution in sim games
I really enjoyed M J Young's article and have been thinking a lot about how sim games work/could work. I got some great respones in this thread when I was…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Tony Irwin, M. J. Young, jdagna, RobMuadib.

7/3/2003 TempUser: Comments on Gamism: Step On Up
This is my first post on www.indie-rpgs.com in a long time, and likely my last post on PnP rpgs in any forum for the foreseeable future. I had wanted to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: TempUser, Clinton R. Nixon, Ron Edwards, ethan_greer.

7/4/2003 Marco: Contradictory Gamism
Hey Ron, High competition in Step On Up plus low competition in Challenge = entirely team-based play, party style against a shared Challenge, but with value placed on some…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Marco, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, BPetroff93, ross_winn, Gordon C. Landis, Mike Holmes, contracycle, epweissengruber.

7/7/2003 Green: Actor Stance Narrativism: How?
Once while I was in the indie netgaming room, someone told me that Kathanaksaya is unique because it offers Actor Stance Narrativist play (not exactly what was said, I'm certain,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Green, Christopher Kubasik, Paganini, Ron Edwards, Ben Lehman.

7/8/2003 mythusmage: Is G/N/S Valid?
Hello. First, my stance could be called, Adventurist. Why do we play RPGs? From my experience, it's to have adventures. There may be a more socially acceptable reason given, but…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: mythusmage, Ron Edwards, Gordon C. Landis, Christopher Kubasik, Kester Pelagius, permacultureguerilla, crkdface, Mike Holmes.

7/10/2003 Alan: Content Classes and GNS
Hi all, I believe there's a quote somewhere that says a model (or theory) is just a tool for understanding. The more tools you have, the better you can approximate…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Alan, Paul Czege.

7/11/2003 mythusmage: On Ron's GNS Article Part One
[quote]My straightforward observation of the activity of role-playing is that many participants do not enjoy it very much. Ron Edwards, 2001 (Introduction)[/quote] I'm in the process of formatting the article…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: mythusmage, Marco, Hunter Logan, Cadriel, Valamir, ethan_greer, Mike Holmes, Thomas Tamblyn, Gordon C. Landis.

7/13/2003 greyorm: Yet More Incoherence!
Second try...the Forge ate the first one as I was posting it. Over in No More Incoherence, Fang asks a question that has been repeated for a couple months: namely…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: greyorm, Marco, Thomas Tamblyn, Ian Charvill, WDFlores.

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