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In GNS Model Discussion

7/4/2003 Marco: Contradictory Gamism
Hey Ron, High competition in Step On Up plus low competition in Challenge = entirely team-based play, party style against a shared Challenge, but with value placed on some…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Marco, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, BPetroff93, ross_winn, Gordon C. Landis, Mike Holmes, contracycle, epweissengruber.

7/3/2003 TempUser: Comments on Gamism: Step On Up
This is my first post on www.indie-rpgs.com in a long time, and likely my last post on PnP rpgs in any forum for the foreseeable future. I had wanted to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: TempUser, Clinton R. Nixon, Ron Edwards, ethan_greer.

7/1/2003 Tony Irwin: Resolution in sim games
I really enjoyed M J Young's article and have been thinking a lot about how sim games work/could work. I got some great respones in this thread when I was…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Tony Irwin, M. J. Young, jdagna, RobMuadib.

6/21/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Gamist design invites repetition?
I was fiddling with some old video games when I noticed that it was doing the same thing over and over. This is not to say there isn't variety to…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Christopher Kubasik, jdagna, Mike Holmes, WDFlores, damion, John Kim, Marco.

6/18/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Incoherent kit-bashing
From this thread What always puzzles me is that people who assert that incoherent game design is a good thing, because apparently it's desirable to tinker rules to taste,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Marco, Mike Holmes, Valamir, Ron Edwards, Wormwood, contracycle.

6/18/2003 Marco: Gamist Essay -- GOOD!
This isn't a post with a hella-lot of content--but I got finished with the gamist essay and ... it's *good!* The split of the challenge sections is insightful. The language…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Marco, Ron Edwards, Ted E. Childers, xiombarg, Mike Holmes.

6/18/2003 Le Joueur: No More Incoherence! - A Rant
Hey there, First off, let me apologize that this may be quite likely the last thing I ever post here, my life recently having been turned upside down (in the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Le Joueur, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Anon LeBlanc, Bankuei, ethan_greer, Marco, Jack Spencer Jr, Mike Holmes, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jake Norwood, C. Edwards, Green, Valamir, cruciel, Matt Snyder, contracycle, WDFlores, xiombarg.

6/17/2003 demiurgeastaroth: Anti-Gamist, or Pro-what?
I enjoyed the gamist essay, but one thing Ron said puzzles me. And, completely differently, "balance" is often invoked as an anti-Gamist play defense, specifically in terms of not permitting…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: demiurgeastaroth, Bankuei, jdagna, Ron Edwards, John Kim, Wormwood.

6/17/2003 Nick Pagnucco: Gamist case study attempt
I remember a thread (specifically a few posts within it) a while back about the use of GNS. The concluding argument was that the use of GNS is analytical; it…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Nick Pagnucco, Ron Edwards.

6/16/2003 taalyn: GNS and metagame machanix
Many games have mechanics that support one mode of GNS play. Victory points, hero points, and the like for gamist criteria, and Luck or points to manipulate the story for…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, jdagna, Shreyas Sampat, M. J. Young, John Kim, demiurgeastaroth, contracycle, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

6/15/2003 Cassidy: A 'Step On Up' Question
[quote="From Gamism Essay"]The players, armed with their understanding of the game and their strategic acumen, have to Step On Up. Step On Up requires strategizing, guts, and performance from the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Cassidy, Ron Edwards.

6/14/2003 Jeff Klein: T&T knife-twisting
I was reading Ron's Black Fire and came across his note on "Twisting the Knife": Design notes: I always wanted a mechanic like this in Games like…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jeff Klein, ejh, Ron Edwards.

6/14/2003 Stuart DJ Purdie: Play outside of either G, N or S modes
I've been thinking a bit about the limitations of GNS theory. Namely, are there any identifiable meta-game priorities that are outside of the model that could lead to functional play?…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Stuart DJ Purdie, jdagna, Christopher Kubasik, John Kim, M. J. Young, Jack Spencer Jr, Wormwood, Ron Edwards, Alan, Bankuei, Emily Care, contracycle.

6/13/2003 Swamplor: Gamism Essay Reaction
Arright, I've been lurking here far too long, time to post something... So I read Ron's Gamism essay and the accompanying sample game and something struck me. Actually, nothign struck…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Swamplor, Ron Edwards.

6/13/2003 anonymouse: the Gamist Hard Question.
(side note 1: 'NIMBY' probably should've gone in the Glossary. the only reason I recognised it was from reading SimCity manuals over the years) (side note 2: how long has…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: anonymouse, Alan, Ron Edwards, Jack Spencer Jr, Lxndr, contracycle, M. J. Young.

6/13/2003 Robert Calder: Using character backstory to assist with coherent play
Greetings, I have been lurking at The Forge recently. This is my first post – I’ve been exploring the ‘net of late, trying to find knowledge to help me understand…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Robert Calder, Bankuei, Paul Czege.

6/11/2003 Jack Spencer Jr: Revised does S really exist. Or It's everywhere!
I have been thinking about the whole issue of Simulationism issue, the question on whether that particular box exists, and how this applies to hybrids. Here's what I've come up…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Jack Spencer Jr, Ron Edwards, Bankuei, contracycle, Cassidy, jdagna, cruciel, M. J. Young, taalyn, Ian Charvill.

6/11/2003 Wormwood: Genre Simulation
Recently I've realized one of my problems with the NS barrier lies in the fact that I have a tendency to design games to simulate the genre, rather than emulate…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Gordon C. Landis, Jack Spencer Jr, Shreyas Sampat, John Kim, M. J. Young.

6/10/2003 quozl: Black Fire / Black Blood
Before reading the Gamism essay ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/21/ ) and the example game ( http://www.indie-rpgs.com/articles/22/ ), I found the presence of the GM to be problematic for purely gamist games. Now,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: quozl, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young, Bankuei, Valamir, contracycle, epweissengruber.

6/8/2003 taalyn: GNS detractors and Social Contract
There was a huge debate this last week on the yahoo group RPGcreate. One particular person was quite vociferous about his opposition to GNS theory (and included standard rants about…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: taalyn, C. Edwards, Alan, Sidhain, jburneko, John Kim, jdagna, ejh, Valamir, Caldis, Bankuei, Marco.

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Subsequent Topics
In GNS Model Discussion

7/8/2003 mythusmage: Is G/N/S Valid?
Hello. First, my stance could be called, Adventurist. Why do we play RPGs? From my experience, it's to have adventures. There may be a more socially acceptable reason given, but…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: mythusmage, Ron Edwards, Gordon C. Landis, Christopher Kubasik, Kester Pelagius, permacultureguerilla, crkdface, Mike Holmes.

7/10/2003 Alan: Content Classes and GNS
Hi all, I believe there's a quote somewhere that says a model (or theory) is just a tool for understanding. The more tools you have, the better you can approximate…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Alan, Paul Czege.

7/11/2003 mythusmage: On Ron's GNS Article Part One
[quote]My straightforward observation of the activity of role-playing is that many participants do not enjoy it very much. Ron Edwards, 2001 (Introduction)[/quote] I'm in the process of formatting the article…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: mythusmage, Marco, Hunter Logan, Cadriel, Valamir, ethan_greer, Mike Holmes, Thomas Tamblyn, Gordon C. Landis.

7/13/2003 greyorm: Yet More Incoherence!
Second try...the Forge ate the first one as I was posting it. Over in No More Incoherence, Fang asks a question that has been repeated for a couple months: namely…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: greyorm, Marco, Thomas Tamblyn, Ian Charvill, WDFlores.

7/14/2003 M. J. Young: Reading Games as Substitutionary for Play?
[quote="In [i][a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7162"](rantish) Interactive Fantasy and Dysfunction[/a][/i], Wayne a.k.a. Cadriel"] What I'm getting from your whole post (I picked a line that really exemplified it well) is that you like…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Marco, greyorm, efindel, Jack Spencer Jr, xiombarg, Lxndr, talysman, gobi, jdagna, Ron Edwards, pete_darby, WDFlores, Unarmed, kamikaze.

7/16/2003 Harsh Tranquility: Using GNS in our game
I have recently read through the GNS essays in the article section of this site, and evaluated myself and the way my game is being developed, and came to think…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Harsh Tranquility, Marco, WDFlores, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

7/26/2003 greyorm: Criticisms of the Threefold
Larry D. Hols has just put up an article entitled "Criticism of the Threefold: Criticism of the RGFA Threefold and similar theories." It can be found here http://www.carrollsweb.com/crkdface/3foldcrit.html. Though mainly…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: greyorm, crkdface, Hunter Logan, Caldis, Marco, Mike Holmes, contracycle, Valamir, Matt Snyder, Gordon C. Landis, Paganini.

7/26/2003 Ben Lehman: Non 3fold-based play analysis
Saw this thread, which prompted the whole thing: http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7307 This is a short essay outlining a new method for discussing playstyles which is not directly derived from the Threefold model,…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ben Lehman, Caldis, Mike Holmes, Hunter Logan, Ron Edwards.

7/30/2003 M. J. Young: Behavior Versus Intention
I know we've discussed it before; and I know that Ron insists GNS has nothing to do with "intent"; and I know I'm on the record as disagreeing with that.…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Marco, Ian Charvill, Valamir, Ron Edwards, Gordon C. Landis.

8/1/2003 Gordon C. Landis: GNS and Dysfunction
From Ron's "GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory":The person who is entirely satisfied with his or her role-playing experiences is not my target audience I think this sentence has…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Gordon C. Landis, Andrew Martin, Ron Edwards.

8/1/2003 John Kim: Origin of the Threefold
Hi, This isn't exactly a GNS topic, but it seemed related enough that I thought I should put it here. I've added a new section to my webpage on the…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: John Kim, Ron Edwards.

8/3/2003 DensityMan: GNS - what is it? (split)
[quote]Talk to someone who participates in role-playing, and focus on the precise and actual acts of role-playing themselves. Ask them, "Why do you role-play?" The most common answer is, "To…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: DensityMan, Ron Edwards.

8/5/2003 Ron Edwards: "Playing my character"
Hello, This thread presents my response to some points raised in the Shadows in the Fog playtest discussion in Actual Play. John, this is me, rolling my eyes. You are…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes, Walt Freitag, Marco, John Kim, cruciel, M. J. Young, A.Neill.

8/7/2003 Ron Edwards: "Playing my character" Part 2
In the "Playing my character" thread, John wrote, I would be curious about Ron's example of the journalist he played in Terry Gant's Call of Cthulhu game. How would you…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Ron Edwards, Mike Holmes, Gordon C. Landis, John Kim, Walt Freitag, cruciel.

8/8/2003 Mark Johnson: Designing Games as Substitutionary for Play?
[quote="In [i][a href="http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=7171"]Reading Games as Substitutionary for Play?[/a][/i] M.J. Young"] Some time back there was a discussion about the degree to which reading the rules of a game was part…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Mark Johnson, Walt Freitag, Alan, Ron Edwards, Jack Aidley, pete_darby.

8/14/2003 jeffd: Practical Examples of GNS
I'm a newbie here, so forgive me if I'm asking something utterly foolish... I've read through most of the articles posted on GNS and I've skimmed the forum some. GNS…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: jeffd, jdagna, Eric J., Mike Holmes, Marco, Alan, Walt Freitag.

8/16/2003 bcook1971: Simulationism does exist
I stumbled onto this site through a chain of events: a player in my AD&D 1st ed. group brought a THAC0 wheel he'd downloaded from RPG United to a game…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: bcook1971, Mad-Eye Moody, M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, simon_hibbs.

8/17/2003 Sir Thomas: Gamism and Director Stance
Just wondering, can Gamism and Director Stance be successfully combined? I think Rune might be like this, but from my readings on these forums, it seems that the Director stance…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Sir Thomas, jdagna, Mike Holmes, Ron Edwards.

8/25/2003 Wormwood: In Search of an Uncertainty Principle
A decision does not possess a creative agenda. Rather the consequences of a decision evidence a dynamic which retro-actively places the decision within a creative agenda. This dynamic structure is…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: Wormwood, Valamir, Mike Holmes, Marco, Ron Edwards, M. J. Young.

8/28/2003 M. J. Young: GNS Analysis--Post Play
[quote="Ron Edwards"]M.J., I'm having a hard time seeing how your insight is a new thing. I mean, I'm glad you wrote it, and it makes perfect sense, and it's all…
In GNS Model Discussion
Participants: M. J. Young, Ron Edwards, cruciel.

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