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Hello all.  Just picked up ROS and love it.  I have a question about $$$ however.  

The monthly income from "jobs" listed in the Social Class section seem increadibly high compared to the annual income listed for each social class in the table in the equipment section.  Has anyone noticed this or am I nuts?  Which is correct?

Actually it seems about right. Take the Guard for example. On the Imperial Standard column, he receives 5-7 silver per month, which figures out to 3-4 gold per year, the same as a low freeman (3 gold).

No, he's talking about table 7.4 on page 203 (in my book anyway)

For example, according to 7.4, a Landless noble gets 20 gold a year income, but in the character creation section, it says D10x10 gold PER MONTH.

Likewise a landed noble gets 50 per year acording to 7.4, but 3d10x10 (that's an average of 165) per month according to the character creation section.

That's the case in my book anyway, although I have the original printing and it may be different in the new book. I'm assuming that table 7.4 is the correct one, but Jake can confirm.

Brian.

Quote from: BrianLNo, he's talking about table 7.4 on page 203 (in my book anyway)

For example, according to 7.4, a Landless noble gets 20 gold a year income, but in the character creation section, it says D10x10 gold PER MONTH.

Likewise a landed noble gets 50 per year acording to 7.4, but 3d10x10 (that's an average of 165) per month according to the character creation section.

That's the case in my book anyway, although I have the original printing and it may be different in the new book. I'm assuming that table 7.4 is the correct one, but Jake can confirm.

Brian.

7.4 was the table I was referring to...it has been revised. Slaves get 0/year; peasant's 1; low freeman 3 (as I had referred to); high freeman 10; landless noble (gentry) 20; and landed noble 50.

This came up a while back as, in my opinion, the greatest typo in the book. The values in Book Two are wrong--go with Book Eight's table. Sorry for the confusion.

Jake

Thanks for the reply re $$.  Is there (or will there be) a general errata sheet available?  I didn't see one on the web page.  

NT

There will be an errata sheet. Someone was throwing that together for me (I'm up to my ears in other things right now)...who was that...?

Jake

A Landed Noble only makes the modern equivalent of 50k per year?  I don't know about that...

Quote from: LyraxA Landed Noble only makes the modern equivalent of 50k per year?  I don't know about that...

I think the thing to keep in mind is that a landed noble is not necessary a duke, or even a baron, but can be a landed knight who has a tiny little valley. In my opinion, the latter would make rather less than 50k than more. A peasant is barely able to buy anything and lives mostly off his own production. The largest part of the income of a landed noble will likely be paid in food and livestock, and as such, have only indirect monetary value, the only exception being when there is a substantial town on his land with artisans who actually DO trade for money rather than barter, or alternatively a mine that the law allows the landed noble, rather than for example the king, to exploit and sell the ore of. In addition to that, the Landed Noble has expenses. He has to keep men-at-arms, has to maintain a manor, or, god forbid, a castle....

Quote from: Jake NorwoodThere will be an errata sheet. Someone was throwing that together for me (I'm up to my ears in other things right now)...who was that...?

That would be me (among others?).  I'm working on it.  Someone else might want to start one... redundancy would be a big help in such a project.

-Mark

Quote from: Irmo

Quote from: LyraxA Landed Noble only makes the modern equivalent of 50k per year?  I don't know about that...

I think the thing to keep in mind is that a landed noble is not necessary a duke, or even a baron, but can be a landed knight who has a tiny little valley. In my opinion, the latter would make rather less than 50k than more. A peasant is barely able to buy anything and lives mostly off his own production. The largest part of the income of a landed noble will likely be paid in food and livestock, and as such, have only indirect monetary value, the only exception being when there is a substantial town on his land with artisans who actually DO trade for money rather than barter, or alternatively a mine that the law allows the landed noble, rather than for example the king, to exploit and sell the ore of. In addition to that, the Landed Noble has expenses. He has to keep men-at-arms, has to maintain a manor, or, god forbid, a castle....

Irmo's right. I'm thinking of a noble with several small manors or one big one...something about the strength of a banneret or powerful vassal knight. A duke is do-able as well. Also remember that $50,000 goes a long way when the average peasant only makes $1,000.

Jake

Quote from: IrmoIn addition to that, the Landed Noble has expenses. He has to keep men-at-arms, has to maintain a manor, or, god forbid, a castle....

I usually make the Landed Noble pay for his expenses out of his pocket.  You want to train more guards to lower crime?  Take out a few gold pieces.  You want to buy armor for your men-at-arms?  Even worse.  You want to build a castle?

You see what I'm getting at?  I mean, if you assume that it all gets taken care of behind the noble's back, then 50,000 a year is more than enough, but what if we want to incorporate all those expenses into the noble's budget?  I am highly doubtful that 50 gold standard per year is enough to run a small fiefdom.

The purpose of a manor was originally to permit a minor nobleman (a knight) to maintain horses arms and armor and provide him with enough "free time" to campaign.  The standard of living beyond this varied widely.

If we assume the average peasant lives at about the poverty line on 1000 per year and we put the modern equivelent of the poverty line at 15,000 per year then we can extrapolate 50,000 a year to the modern equivelent of 750,000 per year.  Enough to qualify as the richest guy you're likely to know but not enough to stand up among the world's ultra elite.  They'll be a very big fish in the small bond, but pretty much the smallest fish worth recognizing in the big pond.

I won't try to defend the number with any degree of precision (but then precision in period economics is futile anyway) but it seems a reasonable ball park for the majority of nobility...i.e. folks other than the greater barons to be at.

I think an alternative mechanism for wealth should be introduced for people who don't want to keep track of wealth. The concept of money in some time periods that TROS is likely to be set in was a nebulous concept at best. Land, livestock, and other things were more likely to constitute wealth in these time periods. So a more abstract mechanism would simplify many things.

The mechanism I would use is borrowed from D20 Modern. In D20M you have a wealth bonus just like BAB and save bonuses. Every item has a Purchase DC representing the cost of the item. If you roll a d20 + wealth bonus > Purchase DC you bought the item. Unless there is some real need or desire to count money I think this would be a great mechanism to have.

Quote from: PosterXThe mechanism I would use is borrowed from D20 Modern. In D20M you have a wealth bonus just like BAB and save bonuses. Every item has a Purchase DC representing the cost of the item. If you roll a d20 + wealth bonus > Purchase DC you bought the item. Unless there is some real need or desire to count money I think this would be a great mechanism to have.

That has to be the stupidest thing I have read in a long while. What were Wizards thinking?

"Sorry ma, I failed to buy the gorceries because I rolled a 2. But I did manage to get a 17 to buy these magic beans."

Bah, and Humbug.

Brian.