TRoS Middel Earth: Elves as player characters

[Turin]

Spell casting in Tolkiens works

Tinuviel puts Morgoth and guests in his hall to sleep with a song.
Gondolin is hidden in a magical way
The enchantment on the woods of Doriath that does not allow hostile types to enter -Melian
Tinuviel makes Beren and her and Beren appear to be a vampire and a werewolf.
Glorfindel or Elrong releases the flood that carries of the black riders
Gandalf's fire works in the shire, lightning (or other pyrotechnics) used against the nazgul on weathertop, fire against the wargs
Finrod Felagund gives his force when travelling the appearance of orcs

Just a few off the top of my head.

Tolklien also gives perhaps magical but different types of abilities to those wise and powerful, mostly among the noldor.  
Galadriel seems to be able to read minds of lesser folk, Gil Galad was able to see through Saurons disguise.
On other thing the noldor had - Finrod "drwe forth his power" to burst his bonds and kill a werewolf in hand to hand (or fist to bite) combat.  The way it reads is that Finrod enhanced his abilities in some fashion for this task, could also be looked at perhaps as SA's (though the Noldor seemed to be able to access these SA's more effectively than others).

[kenjib]

I'd be careful citing Martinez blindly,the guy is a minefield.

Here's some of Tolkien's own ideas on the issue of magic:

http://www.users.cts.com/king/e/erikt/tolkien/lttr155.htm

Hi Irmo.  From that page:  

Aragorn's `healing' might be regarded as `magical', or at least a blend of magic with pharmacy and `hypnotic' processes. But it is (in theory) reported by hobbits who have very little notions of philosophy and science; while A.(ragorn) is not a pure `Man', but at long remove one of the `children of Luthien'. "

Okay, so how about ammending my priority list above with a slight footnote?  Gifted numenorean/dunedain characters have some distant trace of elvish blood in their ancestry.  With this change I think it still holds up pretty nicely as regards who can and can't use magic.

[kenjib]

How much better are a Dunedain vs a normal human? share your LoTR knowledge!

Well, to be in keeping with the real essence of Tolkein you might run into some problems in the game.  The problem is, essentially, that there is no negative tradeoff to being a Dunedain or Elf vs a normal human.  They are just better in pretty much every way - smarter, faster, wiser, stronger, longer lived, more skilled, etc.  You can't capture this with the priority system.  It almost seems like the only way to do it within the TROS system would be to require people to have a certain amount of insight before they can play one of these race options so they can start with the kind of priorities they need, like AABBCD.

[ZenDog]

It almost seems like the only way to do it within the TROS system would be to require people to have a certain amount of insight before they can play one of these race options so they can start with the kind of priorities they need, like AABBCD.

That's a really elegant solution actually. Make the players earn the right through play, and what better way to take the sting out of a characters death than knowing the next one will be like Legolas or Aragorn.

[bergh]

Im making Elves A priority!

yes they are better but then again. im not a rule-slave GM, and I will only allow players to be elves, if they can play elves.

The priority system, has many flaws, and few merits, but its easy.

The insight system is weird, ok! it helps new characters, but it also seem to me to be a "oh my character died, now i will make a new one and thrown away, becouse there are unlimited credit when using insight system."

Making elves AA is a good thing, but then some bad players will just kill there character when he got enough insight and then make an elf character, i think its better to start let them be elves.

[Valamir]

"oh my character died, now i will make a new one and thrown away, becouse there are unlimited credit when using insight system."

Ummm, can you try that again?

[bergh]

yes some players can maybe see the insight as a way to, not make a new fresh character. we have discussed the insight idea in my group, and I (the gm), has decided NOT to use it as per standard.

ie. you get to make a better character when you character die (better then newbe), becouse of insight points, this is fine when playing with good roleplayers.

BUT one of a the persons in my RPG club, who was looking in the book (he is not a player on my team), commented that this system was great becouse then if you died, you would make a new character as powerfull as to old one.

This guy play ultra hack and slash, he does not even gives his characters a name (yes DnD). and he is the kind of persons who don't understand the meaning with table-and-paper rpg, and should instead play Diable on his computer.

What im trying to say, is that maybe players wish to "misuse" the insight system by not taking death as serious, becouse you get to make a character as good as the old one.
ie. the same idea when a character dies in a level system, some GM's let there players make a new character at the same level as the old one.

[Turin]

You could always appy 1/2 insight to the new character as a rule for the hack & slash crowd.

Some plusses for a good character, but not enough to make dying desirable.

[bergh]

i have decided to make the insight function as a guide line, nothing else.

i have no problems in giving players a new character on same "power" level as the other players, often the good players refuse, and only wanna recieve some of the bonus, mostly so they can make there "new concept idea" perfect, and still have some to fight for.

but those hack and slash players should hopefully not even apply for my team, the usualy think they are to boring, its not every session there are a character vs evil-bad-guy-like-orcs-or-worse-all-sides-geared-up-for-battle scene.
fighting large groups of orcs and such things should be something that should take the breath out of the players, and make them sweat a little!
hehe, a little side history this has ended in......

anyway make a comment about my hobbit for TROS thread...that would make me happy.

[Andrew Mure]

From what I've read and seen of Tolkien elves, their main weakness is psychological rather than in their temporal stats which should be appropriately impressive. The elves have perhaps the least to lose in letting Middle Earth be destroyed by the hordes of Mordor, why is this? Because an elf can always choose to hop abroad one of the Grey ships and go into the West to live forever!

The Riddle for an Tolkien Elf is not as much 'what am I prepared to die for?' than 'why should I have to die at all?'!

Thus my downer for Elf characters in Tolkien would be on their SAs, as the Elves (at least while they stay Elves) can never truly be as committed as those races who have their mortality on the line.

To do this I would have all Elf characters have the major flaw 'Tormented' as a default. Consider being an immortal being trying to convince themselves into being a hero and possibly dying (something their race knows little of) when the alternative of doing nothing would mean they remain immortal and prosper. The other thing to represent I would suggest is that all Elven characters must take the destiny 'retreat into the west' amongst their SAs. If the Elf ever chooses to drop this SA, they cease being a Elf and loose all Elven abilities (and flaws) attached, becoming one of higher human races instead (with the exception of Istari, Elves who abandon their Elvishness should NOT be allowed to join the White Council!). An elf is allowed to take a second destiny, however this is almost inevitably going to come into conflict with the 'retreat into the West' destiny sooner or later.

IE- Arwen should have destiny 'Marry Aragorn and become Queen of Gondor' alongside 'Retreat into the West'. As we all know these two do come into conflict...

[bergh]

Andrew.....that's GREAT viewing on it! Those idea's of how elves think, can make an start on an great campaign, and give an elf player ALOT of good rpg, instead of just using his super-stats to out "hack-and-slash" the human warriors.

Im using your idea, down to the last letter....fixes SA for elves is not a bad idea.

[Irmo]

From what I've read and seen of Tolkien elves, their main weakness is psychological rather than in their temporal stats which should be appropriately impressive. The elves have perhaps the least to lose in letting Middle Earth be destroyed by the hordes of Mordor, why is this? Because an elf can always choose to hop abroad one of the Grey ships and go into the West to live forever!

The Riddle for an Tolkien Elf is not as much 'what am I prepared to die for?' than 'why should I have to die at all?'!

Thus my downer for Elf characters in Tolkien would be on their SAs, as the Elves (at least while they stay Elves) can never truly be as committed as those races who have their mortality on the line.

Actually, Andrew, there's a problem with this: It is counter to the concept of mortality being the gift of Illuvatar to men. Even more so than Elves, men are liberated when slain. They are moved beyond the confines of the world, where neither Sauron nor Morgoth can ever reach them. The elves on the other hand go to Aman. That is a safe haven for the time being, but not unassailable as the killing of the two trees shows.

Elves are bound to fate. Elves are bound to the world. Whatever happens to the world, they feel most closely, and they are unable to alter its fate. Men, on the other hand, are much more free and can cut the corners. It is through someone with mannish blood (Earendil) that the people of Beleriand are saved and Morgoth is defeated, and it is through the men of Gondor and Rohan, and through the mannish Hobbits that Sauron is defeated.

I would also argue against your suggestion that Elves should have a destiny "retreat into the west". Many don't go there willingly. The Avari never even pondered the concept. While they will end up there eventually, it is not something they actively pursue.

How's about this suggestion: All elves MUST have a destiny and are unable to buy out their destiny. Once it is fulfilled, it is fulfilled. The dice are lost, they have fulfilled their personal task in the world. It would normally be time to take ship for them, and if they remain, their life will be the poorer for the lack of direction. This would mimic the circumstances of the elves as a people: They exist to teach the secondborn. Once mankind is able to stand on its own feet, their task in Middle-Earth is done. I think making it impossible to buy down an SA you can't use anymore is quite a drawback.

The other suggestions collide a bit too much with Tolkien's views of elves, men and mortality as described in the Silmarillion and elsewhere.

[bergh]

hmm, im not at all a tolkien academic, so what is right and wrong i can deam. But like the idea, that elves think very different from men, men whats power, money and pretty woman's in there beds.

Elves wants something more, they have a whole other idea of fate and destiny. So elves having a very specific "task" to do, can be a great way for some good roleplaying, and also be a VERY big problem when roleplaying in a group.

Generaly i see elves as a veteran players choise....

[Tash]

Spell casting in Tolkiens works

Tinuviel puts Morgoth and guests in his hall to sleep with a song.
Gondolin is hidden in a magical way
The enchantment on the woods of Doriath that does not allow hostile types to enter -Melian
Tinuviel makes Beren and her and Beren appear to be a vampire and a werewolf.
Glorfindel or Elrong releases the flood that carries of the black riders
Gandalf's fire works in the shire, lightning (or other pyrotechnics) used against the nazgul on weathertop, fire against the wargs
Finrod Felagund gives his force when travelling the appearance of orcs

Again, most (but not all) of these involve the creation, or use, of a magic item or object of some kind (stretching the term "object" to include physical location, which can be argued as being a really, really large object).  Actually a good model for magic in Riddle, where storing spells in items becomes an effective way to reduce aging.

Also, is Gondolin actually hidden magically.  I am rereading the Silmarilion now and don't remmeber any descriptions of Gondolin being hidden magically (at least not yet).  It seems that its just hidden really well.

[Turin]

The Noldor were heavily bound by fate.  Fingolfin might have had a die by the hands of Morgoth, Fingon by Sauron, Gil Galad by Sauron, etc.

Tash - The fall of Gondolin (lost tales, I believe) went into the city of Gondolin in much more depth.  It was magically hidden to some extent, Tuor I believe only found it due to Ulmo letting him (If I remember correctly, the hiding was helped by Ulmo, I'm not sure if any others were involved.  The hiding seemed to be somewhat  magical as well as physical, but not to the extent of making it invisible - more in the confusing of the searchers).