TRoS Middel Earth: Elves as player characters

[Irmo]

The Noldor were heavily bound by fate.  Fingolfin might have had a die by the hands of Morgoth, Fingon by Sauron, Gil Galad by Sauron, etc.

Tash - The fall of Gondolin (lost tales, I believe) went into the city of Gondolin in much more depth.  It was magically hidden to some extent, Tuor I believe only found it due to Ulmo letting him (If I remember correctly, the hiding was helped by Ulmo, I'm not sure if any others were involved.  The hiding seemed to be somewhat  magical as well as physical, but not to the extent of making it invisible - more in the confusing of the searchers).

Ouch, careful there. That story is one of THE OLDEST stories Tolkien wrote. Putting it into the context of the Silmarillion is highly dangerous, given the scores of changes Tolkien made to his world.

[Tash]

The description of Gondolin in The Silmarillion is much more mundane, it really seems to be hidding only in a physical sense, though there might be some magic involved that is implied (such as Galdriel's ring protecting and hiding Lothlorien).

As always attempts to make connections across various works in the Tolkien pantheon are tenuous at best due to the highly inconsistent nature of the stories.

[Mike Holmes]

Also note that Sauron's magic is by no means normal, he is a creation of, and former servant to, Melkor, aka Morgoth, the great enemy of the Valar (essentially the Satan character of Middle Earth, he is the second greatest, after Manwe, of all the Valar, but fell to darkness because of pride and his lust to dominate all things). Sauron is described as equal to him in both power and cruelty.

First, Sauron was not a creation of Melkor, he was one of the Maiar who followed Aule the smith, originally. Working with earth and such, Melkor, who tore Middle Earth asunder to create things like Angband, appealed to Sauron who was eventually seduced into Melkor's service.

He's undoubtedly a powerful Maiar, but on the same power scale as Ungoliant (mother of Shelob), Gothmog and the rest of the Balrogs, and the Istari. In fact some have speculated that it was Mithrandir (Gandalf) who slew Gothmog in the first age. Hence Gandalf's fear of the Balrog of Moria. All these creatures are of the same general magnitude of power, one level lower than Melkor, Manwe, and the rest of the Ainur.

I go over this all the time.

What makes Sauron seem so much more of an ass-kicker than, say, Gandalf, despite they being the same type of creature, essentially, is that Sauron has made the same mistake that his master Melkor did. He invested himself in Middle Earth, leaving his westerly heritage behind for the most part. This makes him powerful in mortal matters, but it's representative of his corruption, and results in his downfall. To be precise, he invests everything in The One Ring, linking it to Celebrimor's 19 others. Just as Melkor's downfall is the Silmarils (the Iron Crown, also a "ring") and just as Saruman invests in the "ring" of Isengard.

The themes are unmistakable. Who are the most powerful elves? Those that remember the west best - but they're also the ones who must return there soonest. Gandalf is more powerful than Sauron in the end because his motives are pure, and he doesn't sully himself with Middle Earth. The moment he's done with his quest (well, relative to the length of his stay), he returns West.

I think that quite a bit of the search for overt magic in ME is the result of trying to get RPGs about it to match D&D magic. Which I think is problematic to say the least. It is possible to argue that all magic in Middle Earth comes driectly from either the elves or from other beings from the West.

It's very possible that the nazgul were once men with elven blood, and the mouth of Sauron too. If they were kings, and likely Numenorean, then they certainly did.

Mike

[Turin]

Irmo wrote:

Ouch, careful there. That story is one of THE OLDEST stories Tolkien wrote. Putting it into the context of the Silmarillion is highly dangerous, given the scores of changes Tolkien made to his world

THe fall of Gondolin does have differences from the Silmarillon, such as the apparently more numerous and less powerful Balrogs, and the sentinent creatures of metal that the orcs used almost as APC's.

Though I do believe Gondolin iis still magically hidden to some extent in the Silmarillon, once again not "invisible" but with spells making it easier to find (until the hiding place is betrayed by Maeglin).  Don't have my Silmarillion in front of me, but I think there is a reference to Ulmo helping them hide the city, aside form the vision he gives Turgon.  The Eagles help hide the city as well, and there are references that imply Manwe is behind this.

It's a large city on a plateau.  Beleriand is not large, so finding such city would not be difficult were there not arcane assistance.  Morgoth even gets a general idea from Hurin's ramblings were the city may be.  Hiding such city from Morgoth, with his far reaching eyes and spies would be difficult, and IMO implies arcane means of hiding.  Though as the enchantment seems greater than Morgoth's ability to find it, it would seem likely that a being of great power is doing the hiding, at least a maia or even a Vala.

The slaying of the Balrog Gothmog by Gandalf is something I have not heard of.  Ecthelion slew Gothmog in the first age, unless Gandalf is somehow a reincarnation of Ecthelion.

I think it is also mentioned that Sauron was one of the most powerful of the Maia.

[Edge]

ahhh Tolkien Geeks in their natural environment :)

[Tash]

He's undoubtedly a powerful Maiar, but on the same power scale as Ungoliant (mother of Shelob), Gothmog and the rest of the Balrogs, and the Istari. In fact some have speculated that it was Mithrandir (Gandalf) who slew Gothmog in the first age. Hence Gandalf's fear of the Balrog of Moria. All these creatures are of the same general magnitude of power, one level lower than Melkor, Manwe, and the rest of the Ainur.

I go over this all the time.

What makes Sauron seem so much more of an ass-kicker than, say, Gandalf, despite they being the same type of creature, essentially, is that Sauron has made the same mistake that his master Melkor did. He invested himself in Middle Earth, leaving his westerly heritage behind for the most part. This makes him powerful in mortal matters, but it's representative of his corruption, and results in his downfall. To be precise, he invests everything in The One Ring, linking it to Celebrimor's 19 others. Just as Melkor's downfall is the Silmarils (the Iron Crown, also a "ring") and just as Saruman invests in the "ring" of Isengard.

The themes are unmistakable. Who are the most powerful elves? Those that remember the west best - but they're also the ones who must return there soonest. Gandalf is more powerful than Sauron in the end because his motives are pure, and he doesn't sully himself with Middle Earth. The moment he's done with his quest (well, relative to the length of his stay), he returns West.

I think that quite a bit of the search for overt magic in ME is the result of trying to get RPGs about it to match D&D magic. Which I think is problematic to say the least. It is possible to argue that all magic in Middle Earth comes driectly from either the elves or from other beings from the West.

It's very possible that the nazgul were once men with elven blood, and the mouth of Sauron too. If they were kings, and likely Numenorean, then they certainly did.

Mike

Your absolutely right Mike.  Sauron is often refered to as a "creation" os Melkor, but its more along the line that Darth Vader is a "creation" of the Emperor.  He existed before, but his current nature is so vastly different from the form that he began in that he was almost "remade" when Melkor corrupted him.

I also agree that the Nazgul would have to be of the line of Numenor.  Sauron wanted to create servants of great might, so handing out rings to "lesser" men wouldn't make much sense.  As with Melkor's creation of the orcs out of the fairest of Middle Earth creatures (the Eldar), Sauron created the ringwraiths by corrupting the best and most powerful of men, which would logically have Numenorean blood.

As for the Istari they are said to have "great powers of mind and hand" which I read as not only wisdom and strength, but probably some kind of "magic" as well, though definately of a more subtle sort that you would find in most fantasy works, and games.

[Irmo]

I also agree that the Nazgul would have to be of the line of Numenor.  Sauron wanted to create servants of great might, so handing out rings to "lesser" men wouldn't make much sense.  As with Melkor's creation of the orcs out of the fairest of Middle Earth creatures (the Eldar), Sauron created the ringwraiths by corrupting the best and most powerful of men, which would logically have Numenorean blood.

Problem here. Among Tolkien's work, we find the name of only one Nazgul. He is Khamul, the Shadow of the East - which would argue against Numenorean heritage.

Remember that Sauron was at a time called the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, and that it was not at all clear that this Necromancer was, in fact, Sauron himself and not one of his servants.

This suggests that a)Necromancy is a set concept and b)it can be mastered by non-Maiar.  This leads me to believe in the possibility to abuse the spirits of, say, elves, and abuse their magic for one's own purposes. Invariably evil, but a way to weild magical power nonetheless.

[Tash]

But was the "Shadow of the East" actually his name or was it a title he assumed after becoming on of the Nine?  Even assuming he was from the east, that doesn't preclude the possibility of some of the other Nazgul having the blood of numenor.

Necromancy does seem to be a pretty set concept, probably involving the use of fallen souls to do evil deeds.  Saruman weilds magic for evil reasons yet is not called a Necromancer.

However I just read the section of The Silmarillion which discusses the time between The Hobbit and LoTR.  While you are correct that the identity of the Necromancer was not know for a time, it seems to me from that section that the White Council thought it was either Sauron himself, or one of the Nazgul.  That would suggest that Necromancy can be learned by non-Maiar, but only with help of a being of Maiar like power.

While at this points its probably a futile attempt, I was thining about something remotely tying all this into Riddle of Steel once again:  how about the power of magic weilded in song?  There are multiple references to songs having great power in Middle Earth.  This is one of the coolest concepts in all of Tolkien's mythology for me.  My theory (colored by the fact that I am a musician and composer, and hence belive music to the single greatest development of the human mind) is that, because the entire universe was created as a song, one can alter the harmony of the universe itself by singing the right song at the right moment.

Thinking of a way to integrate this with Riddle:  All songs to be created that functioned as a kind of "uber formalized" spell.  The caster would receive the same bonuses as when casting a ritual spell, except they would have to roll a musical instrument check when casting to assure that the song/spell would cast correctly.  Prior to singing the character would allocate dice from their SP for the magic component of the song, and as long as the skill check was successful the spell would not only cast, but each success in the singing skill check would become and automatic success on the aging rolll.  Additional SP dice could be rolled to resist aging further if desired.

Thoughts on how this would work?

[Mike Holmes]

I think the East in question was Angmar - East of the falled Arnor. That is, the Dunedain that he caused the downfall of personally would have looked to the east and seen him as a shadow there. Worse, there seems to be some potenntial confusion with Unfinished Tales where Khamul is listed as "the Easterling" (which is pretty clear), but as the witch-king's second in command. That is, not the same nazgul.

In any case, the ICE guys went with the interpretation that this meant that he was from "off map" too, and made up names for the rest of the wraiths, and gave them backgrounds. Going with the Unfinished Tales version, the Witch-king became Murazor, and Khamul the Easterling was his second in command. Again, this seems to me to be a D&Dification of the whole thing to fit MERP. I mean, you've got Spell Law, with all it's D&Dish spells, and you're trying to fit the system to Middle Earth...of course you're going to look for any indication that magic is more common than Tolkien made explicitly clear that it was.

On the other hand, there is the statement that the nazgul were from many lands of Middle Earth. But that same statment is also ambiguous as to what they were: were they all kings and sorcerers? Or were they a group composed of kings and sorcerers? It seems rather likely that some of the kings of numenor at least ended up as wraiths - they were originally corrupted by Sauron after they captured him. And I think that I've heard other tales of Numenoreans weilding sorcery. So these could have been the sorcerers in question, while the other potentially non-Numenorean blooded kings were just kings and had no magic.

I think that we can't underestimate ICE's handling of the property in setting expectations of it. And note that I'm not against any such interpretation, either - I think it works just fine that way. I just think that there are other interpretations that are at least as close to "pure" Tolkien that are worth looking at.

On the subject of the title The Necromancer, I think that given the hundreds of years over which this persona of Sauron's became known, that the title could have developed solely to refer to him. Indeed we can only be sure that this is what he's refered to near the end of the third age. It may just not have existed as a term before sauron took up residence at Dol Goldur. Or maybe not, who knows?

Mike

[Irmo]

I think the East in question was Angmar - East of the falled Arnor. That is, the Dunedain that he caused the downfall of personally would have looked to the east and seen him as a shadow there. Worse, there seems to be some potenntial confusion with Unfinished Tales where Khamul is listed as "the Easterling" (which is pretty clear), but as the witch-king's second in command. That is, not the same nazgul.

Why not the same? And I doubt that Angmar is the east meant. The Nazgul were first seen in the Second Age, long before Arnor fell, and long before Angmar was founded.

On the other hand, there is the statement that the nazgul were from many lands of Middle Earth. But that same statment is also ambiguous as to what they were: were they all kings and sorcerers? Or were they a group composed of kings and sorcerers? It seems rather likely that some of the kings of numenor at least ended up as wraiths - they were originally corrupted by Sauron after they captured him. And I think that I've heard other tales of Numenoreans weilding sorcery. So these could have been the sorcerers in question, while the other potentially non-Numenorean blooded kings were just kings and had no magic.  

There is a problem with that argumentation: There is only one Numenorean king to which Sauron had access after they captured him, because the King who captured him was the last, Ar-Pharazon. And he was born quite a bit after the Nazgul first appeared.

I think that we can't underestimate ICE's handling of the property in setting expectations of it. And note that I'm not against any such interpretation, either - I think it works just fine that way. I just think that there are other interpretations that are at least as close to "pure" Tolkien that are worth looking at.  

I am not sure why you continuously bring ICE into the discussion, since I never relied on them.

On the subject of the title The Necromancer, I think that given the hundreds of years over which this persona of Sauron's became known, that the title could have developed solely to refer to him. Indeed we can only be sure that this is what he's refered to near the end of the third age. It may just not have existed as a term before sauron took up residence at Dol Goldur. Or maybe not, who knows?

The point is that it was not known that the Necromancer is Sauron. Yet that he would practice this type of magic was not ruled out.

No one is more disinclined to make magic generally available. But Tolkien clearly suggested that there was a desire to use magic as an immoral shortcut to achieve one's goals, and I'd suggest that such a desire was especially common among the relatively short-lived types of man.

So, as I pointed out, there are some major problems in your argumentation regarding the timeline of appearance of the Nazgul. Encyclopedia of Arda lists it as II 2250, which is more than a thousand years before the downfall of Numenor.

[Irmo]

Also cf the alternate designation "the Black Easterling" for the second-in-command of the Nazgul.

Also, someone pointed out to me that somewhere in Akallabeth, it was stated that three of the Nazgul were Numenorean lords. Which makes it pretty definite that the others at least weren't lords, but more probably were not numenorean.

[Mike Holmes]

Also cf the alternate designation "the Black Easterling" for the second-in-command of the Nazgul.

Right, as in Khamul the Black Easterling - obviously Tolkien himself was undecided on who was who (or perhaps this is a Christopher Tolkien "addition" to the canon, I don't know).

Also, someone pointed out to me that somewhere in Akallabeth, it was stated that three of the Nazgul were Numenorean lords. Which makes it pretty definite that the others at least weren't lords, but more probably were not numenorean.

The blood of the kings was carried in the veins of the lords of Numenor - there was often more than one heir, which is how Isuldur's line gets started (indeed there are several Numenorean kings at certain times), for instance. The point is that in those thousand years, or in the years following (the death or Ar-Pharazon doesn't mean the end of Elvish blood in the Numenoreans), Sauron apparently got three of them that could have also been "sorcerers".

Again, we don't know for how long the witch king has been refered to as even the witch king, much less "Shadow of the East". I think it's thought that in the second age, before they lost their forms, that they were probably refered to by their names (Khamul in this case), and very likely not as Shadows. Who knows when the apellation got stuck on him? Same thing with the necromancer. Couldn't this have been a name given to him when somebody discovered his "undead" nature? In any case, is there any evidence that he ever did any necromancy as we think of it? And even if so, couldn't the title have been unique to him? You're saying that, linguistically in westron that the term necromancer preceeds Sauron in Dol Goldur, but we don't know that.

Again, I'm not going to argue that some didn't come from other places than Numenor, I think they probably did. But, again, it's not clear that Tolkein meant that they were all sorcerers. Even if we accept that Khamul is an Easterling, or from the East, and not Numenorean (the name alone somewhat suggests it), can we be sure that he was a sorcerer before he became a wraith? What does "Sorcerer" even mean in a Middle Earth context - Tolkien never explains what abilities they have.

In any case, our opinions on the commonality of magic are very close. All I'm arguing is that any case to be made for magic being at all known outside of some very narrow venues is tenuous at best. Meaning that the GM in question simply has to decide for himself. Does he want to extrapolate some of the scant data into something wider, or does he just want to keep magic restricted to certain character types? All I'm saying is that I think both are valid.

Mike

[Turin]

As the Tolkien geek I am, I was reading the Silmarillion and just had to post this:

In regards to being Gondolin being magicaly hidden,  In the chapter where Finrod and Turgon are looking to see where to place their fortresses/Cities, Ulmo came to them in a dream, and told Turgon where to establish Gondolin.  Ulmo also said that he would make it impossible for anyone to find Gondolin without Turgon's permission.  It seems this is similar to the "girdle" of Melian.  Ulmo also later tells Turgon (I forget how) that the water of the Sirion are being dispoiled by Morgoth, and his strength is falling away from these areas.  I believe this was a warning to Turgon about Gondolin being found.

[MonkeyWrench]

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but Bergh have you considered looking at the Burning Wheel mechanics for elven Grief?  I haven't had a chance to read the whole set yet, but I've been told that the system models Tolkien Elves better than anything else out there.

[bergh]

Burning wheel? please tell me more about this!