Game system design

[Spawny]

 Does anyone out there have any ideas/know of any articles on designing a game system? I have 3 RPG worlds/ideas fleshed out etc. But im having REAL trouble working out what the attributes/dice system should be. Every time I start to think ive got a good idea it seems to collapse under its own stupidity :smile:
Its not the specifics im worried about, just how to work out what attributes should be worth/what values to give them etc.
Any help would be appreciated!

[Ron Edwards]

Hi there, and welcome to the Forge.

I'd like to be able to provide good answers to your question about design. It seems, though, as if you've already decided on a few things - the fact that you'll have both attributes and skills, for instance, and that they will be "worth" something (perhaps in character points of some kind?). These are big decisions. It might be worth backing up a little and perhaps comparing some existing systems across a variety of different approaches, then choosing your own system on the basis of some fundamental principles.

Here at the Forge, my big article "GNS and related matters" is a very abstract set of ideas that includes a lot about game design. It might not be what you're looking for. A lot of people here have their own notions, too, some of which are pretty different from mine, and I'm sure they'll chime in, especially if you tell us a tad more about your settings.

Also, at http://www.rpg.net">RPG.net there is a whole section about game design and a lot of articles. It's a very different sort of site, so you can decide which approach suits your needs better. Same goes for http://www.gamingoutpost.com">The Gaming Outpost.

Again, let us know more. What sort of settings are they? No need to give away everything, just basics of some kind.

Best,
Ron

[Jared A. Sorensen]

Hey, Spawny...nice to see you.

Umm, ditto what Ron said, 'cept for the RPG.net stuff because I know you came here from there because I told ya about the Forge (go me! more residuals!).

I'm actually planning to write my magnum opus on game design, entitled: "How to Design a Game." Here's the short version:

Designing a game, especially a roleplaying game, is extremely easy if you are a) extremely talented or b) extremely stupid.

Extremely talented people just do it, without much regard for the how's and why's -- the theory behind it.

Extremely stupid people do the exact same thing.

The difference of course is that stupid people rarely design a good game. Designing a good game is another thing entirely.

As for "what attributes/scores to give them" -- it doesn't really matter for the most part, unless you're worried about balance. What you need to determine is WHAT IS THE GAME ABOUT and HOW DOES THE GAME GO ABOUT THAT.

Answer those two questions and you could be the next Hardcoremoose or Zak Arntson (and stop blushing you two).

- J

_________________
jared a. sorensen / http://www.memento-mori.com
indie game design from beyond the grave

[ This Message was edited by: Jared A. Sorensen on 2001-12-21 22:36 ]

[Zak Arntson]

On 2001-12-21 22:36, Jared A. Sorensen wrote:
Answer those two questions and you could be the next Hardcoremoose or Zak Arntson (and stop blushing you two).

Wheee!!  I am blushing.  And here's a link to my site: http://zaknet.tripod.com/hmouse/">Harlekin-Maus Games

Here's my method:

Brainstorm.  Write out what your game consists of in the most abstract sense.  Don't think along the lines of skill or attribute or character class lists (unless that's the focus of your game).  You said that you had some ideas already?  Great!  Start from one of those.  For example, I recently read some great books by Lawrence Watt-Evans, and I wanted to get to the theme of this.  I wrote down little ideas like, "Fame = Trouble" and "Reward Practicality and Creativity over Heroism for the sake of Heroism."

Next, think about your game and the way you'd like to play it, and have other people play it. For my example game, it was simply, "Regular people thrust in fateful situations, where they use practical and creative means to get out. Fate tends to pay attention to those who stick their necks out in an obvious way, so encourage the "regular joe" thrust in terrible predicaments."

Read some RPGs that sound familiar or you'd like to steal ideas from (be sure to mention 'em in your credits!). For mine, it was Dying Earth, mostly.

Design your game. Know that this first design will either be brilliant and perfect, or suck. Most likely the latter. Anyhow, take your rules and remove everything that doesn't match your game. In my game, I initially had Skills. That didn't match.  But some measure of your past should, since the Watt-Evans stories center around people's history and ambitions. So I changed Skills to be Path. And it's very, very broad.  (If you put Rat-Catcher down, you can perform any skill related to that).

What else, um, keep doing this. Trimming and trimming. And come up with mechanics that fit your ideas.  I felt that Fate needs to play a big part. So you can get bonus dice whenever you want, but the more bonus dice you have, the greater your chances of suffering unintended consequences (even on a successful roll!).  This, to me, accurately reflected the fact that you can stick your neck out, and do heroic deeds, but Fate's much more likely to cut your head off!

I don't stop designing until the only mechanics there are support the game in its entirety.

Other things to mention ... try experimenting. Especially with concepts that may seem weird or uncomfortable. Like getting rid of Attributes.  Or not using a separate set of mechanics for combat.

Anyhow, do this a bunch.  Most of your games you won't want to follow through on.  You can pour over my livejournal (www.livejournal.com/~zaka) and see half-finished and aborted games all over the place.  Blech.

Good luck, and welcome to the Forge!

[hardcoremoose]

Wow...my name was invoked.  I love that. :smile:

Sheesh, I don't know what to add at this point, as Zak and Jared seem to have it covered.

Absolutely, the most important thing, is to understand what your game is about.  What do you want the players to do?  Make sure your game not only facilitates that (i.e., allows them to do it), but actually encourages them to do it.  

Attributes, Skills, and all that junk often boil down to the same thing, but check out some games (and some of the threads around here) for ideas on reward systems.  Give the players what they want, and they'll give you what you want.

Do not include extra stuff that may dilute your intent or distract your players.  If your games are not about combat, do not spend two-thirds of your page count detailing rules for it - your audience will think that you want them to go out and fight things (also, if you're game is not about combat, do not reward them for such behavior -see the rewards system thing I previously mentioned).

Don't be afraid to throw old assumptions out the window, or to try something entirely new.  Every design has value, if only to provide you with something to build upon.  We do this stuff first because we love it and secondly for the fame, glory, money, and women.

And to repeat the sage of advice of one Jared Sorensen, echoed just above by the near sage-like Zak Arnston, never add to something, always subtract.  Strip it down to the essentials.  Keep it lean and functional.

Have fun pouring over the forums...there's alot of good stuff here, from some very talented people.  And if you want to post some specifics about your settings, I'm sure you'll get plenty of feedback from this rather opinionated group.  

Take care,
Moose

[Spawny]

 Bloody hell, these are some great ideas, thanks guys!

I dont know that ill have skills/attributes or whatever, im trying to just find an easy system where you get a number and roll against it, but of course but you cant just do that as you want the players to feel like the characters they have are advancing in levels/experience and arent just static, it might work for a game world designed with that in mind, but mine are fantasy style d&d, post apocalypse and Sci-fi, and I dont know that it would work out for any of them other than the sci-fi one.
I figure im better off keeping it as simple as possible.

Maybe I should just flesh out the game world entirely and try working from there?

(Thanks for the welcome by the way :smile: )

[hardcoremoose]

Spawny,

Well, sure...players love to see their characters grow and change.  Just make sure that you're giving them experience points (or whatever) for the right reasons.  Check out Dying Earth, Sorcerer, and the discussion about stunt rewards in the RPG Theory forum for some cool ideas about reward systems.

And remember, characters don't have to get better to be dynamic.  Take the recent obsession of fantasy fans, the The Fellowship of the Ring.  Aragorn doesn't get better at anything per se, but he's hardly a static character.  Change is as good as growth, if it suits what you're trying to do.

Just some ideas.  I really have no idea what you're looking for, so take them at face value.

- Moose

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Spawny,

It might be helpful to recognize some of your own assumptions for what they are. Attributes, skills, and an improvement system that increases these numbers are not "baseline" for role-playing; one doesn't have to use them.

For instance, many of the games released in the last five years have indeed "just given the character a number," without regard to building it in the nature/nurture sense of attributes/skills. You should check out Over the Edge from the early 90s to see where it started, but you can also see versions of this idea in today's Hero Wars, The Dying Earth, and Zero. Two of these game systems were designed by the brilliant Robin Laws, and anything he's written is recommended.

You might also take a look at Fudge and, if you can find a copy, Castle Falkenstein. Or Paul Elliot's The Ladder, which is linked here in the Forge library. These use kind of a "stepped" system that doesn't even need to rate the character's features, just compares them to everyone else.

Now, it may be that you're not interested in anything quite so outlandish. We tend to get caught up in our perception of the Forge as avant-garde, but everyone here, including those who have published their games in book form, began their design career with some modification or streamlined version of AD&D or Champions. So - if attributes, skills, character points, and advantage/disadvantage balance are your current guiding principles, go for it!

Best,
Ron

[Spawny]

 Im trying to think of a way to show the characters are changing/advancing without all the bothersome statistics, as the main RPG im working on is VERY story driven and has a very detailed world, so I think people playing it will be more interested in exploring it than worrying too much about what level they are as the emphasis isnt on that at all!  Im just trying to work out how to solve combat etc. As I didnt want a million statistics, and dont just want to pick arbitrary numbers for it.........

[hardcoremoose]

Hey Spawny,

I hate games with a million things to keep track of too.  Assuming that you and I have certain likes and dislikes in common, I'll ramble on here for awhile about what I like.  Take it for what it is worth...which is nothing if my previous assumption turns out to be incorrect.

You say your game is story-driven.  What kinds of stories are you trying to tell?  You also say the game is about exploring a highly detailed setting, but in-and-of itself, that is not a story.  Stories (typically) have protagonists, and they are the most important people in the story.  Are those the player characters?  Stories involve a rise and fall of dramatic tension - victories, defeats, and reversals of fortune (both good and bad).  Is this the sort of stuff you're looking for?  Stories make a point - they have something to say, even if it's ridiculously frivolous.  Does your game allow the players to make statements about things through their characters?  Ultimately, stories have endings.  RPGs are not often designed with such things in mind, but why not?  Why does every game have to designed from the perspective that this game will be the game that is played on into infinity, when we all know that eventually we'll get bored with the campaign and it'll fizzle out?  If it's really story-driven, it needs to facilitate the arc of a story - the beginning, the middle, and the end.  Ironically, the fact that game play will eventually culminate in an ending fixes one of your stated problems - the problem of character advancement.  When players realize they're not in it for the long haul, everything changes; they stop playing their cards close to their chest, they do things and take chances, and they're no longer worried about what skills they need to improve so that they can qualify for some special bonus at level 15.

What I describe above is not for everyone.  It's not even always for me.  But, I've discovered I really like those elements in a game, and maybe you will too.

The last bit I spoke about - the idea of closed story arcs - somewhat flies in the face of another of your stated goals, which is exploration.  I guess you could explore things for short periods of time, but really the idea lends itself to a long term investment on the part of the players.  Long term games, in my experience, make for sucky stories (mostly because these games have no direction, no goal, and often no closure - they tend to fizzle out before the most important part of the story - the climax).  But I think it's possible to reach a compromise.  Sorcerer & Sword strikes that bargain well by going somewhat the opposite direction of most game design; it proposes a deliberately sketchy setting, to be filled up and in by the players as their characters explore it.  This is cool, because it ensures that the setting matters to the players, and facilitates the stories they are trying to tell.  There are other games out there that take similar paths - Alyria (I think), Dying Earth, and Orkworld to name a few.

Of course, you can be story-driven and go the other way.  Hero Wars [/1]does, and does so very well.  The difference here, as I see it, is that you are not so much exploring that world as you are using its amazing detail to inspire new stories.  I'm not a Hero Wars[/i} expert, though, so I should shut up about it.

That's about it.  Take care.

- Moose

[Spawny]

 Well, the gameworld will be detailed and there will be many ideas for campaigns etc. But it is going to be left up to the players as to how they explore it and what they do. Actually, just now Ive gotten a good idea of something I should try, so Ill let you know if it works out :smile:

[James V. West]

This thread is great! Such fantastic advice being doled out...I'm getting dizzy.

I'll kick the thing down a notch or two and spew out some of the things I've been noticing about how I go about game design.

I usually get an idea in the form of an image, a word, or a concept. I scribbled a pentagram in my sketchbook and started brainstorming an idea for a satanic game (but KILL PUPPIES FOR SATAN satisfied my needs pretty well so I abandoned it). I drew a cool looking logo that read "Hunter Raven" and was so inspired I wrote a slew of pages based on images conjured by that title. Now I'm working on a game that came about from the notion of players naming their own difficulty levels for all conflicts.

The Pool came out in a couple of hours after getting hit with the idea of gambling for story-power.

I've only been seriously looking at game design for less than a year, so I'm still exploring my approach and drinking in the advice of all these great creators around me (in cyberspace...of course). Its fun as hell.

So in short, what works for me is to let inspriation be the guide. When an idea comes you'll probably smile to yourself like a fox in the henhouse (I do). The First Idea is like a hole through muck. On the other side is a Fantastic Game. Keep looking at it. Like one of those optical illusion pictures with sailboats or whales in them, the picture will come into focus if you relax and let your eyes find it.

No, I never wrote for forutne cookie companies.

James V. West
http://www.geocities.com/randomordercreations/index.html

[Spawn]

 Well, ive come up with another idea as well thanks to this thread, its pretty much based on the old attributes/skills thing, but its quite easy for me to do, so Ill probably go with that unless this thread turns up any more ideas :smile:

[Joe Murphy (Broin)]

Further to James' excellent response, here's some much more wishy-washy advice... I think of my style as 'hackish'. :smile:

Hackers write little bits of code here and there. One year, they might tie together a database in a neat way, the next year they might play with a chat program. They *play* with the code, and tend not to work on things that irritate them. It's often counterproductive.

Later, said hacker realises he needs this particularly elegant piece of code he wrote a year ago to go with something he just coded, so goes and finds it, nudges it slightly, and has made something substantial from disparate elements.

If whatever you're writing at the moment doesn't work, or has an element you're not sure of, it can sometimes help to leave it alone and let it stew. The half-dozen game settings I have in my brain at the moment are products of every RPG experience I've ever had. Some are based on bits of books I read a dozen years ago, plus things I read last week on these forums. =)

Joe.

[hardcoremoose]

Why'd you change your username?  You'll never rack up enough posts to compete with the big boys that way.  :smile:

Let's hear some of these ideas.  You post 'em, and I guarantee someone will say something inspirational that pushes you even further down the road of genius.  Hell, sometimes the people here have so many cool suggestions that you have to develop a new skill - how to know when enough is just right, and any more is too much.  Yeah, Jared taught me that too.

Start with a setting, since that seems to be your focal point.  What's first up for the Spawn-man?

- Moose