the "supplement treadmill"

[Erick Wujcik]

...distributors don't care if you publish supplements for your RPG. Like publishers, they would rather sell a lot of one thing than a little of lots of things. If you can design and market an RPG that produces consistent, evergreen sales without support products, the distributors will love you...

This does not match my experience. Not at all.

Phage Press ran into lots of problems with distributors who wanted there to be a larger product line. Since Phage Press only published Amber Diceless and Shadow Knight it was considered 'too small.'

Now this wasn't the case back in the early 1990s. Back then there were a range of distributors who worked closely with retailers, and they would point out that Amber Diceless was a very consistent sales item. It never lingered on the shelves...

I can't say why exactly, but the big distributors (including Alliance and Diamond) had no patience for any small line. From my perspective it was because they focused exclusively on selling new -- if it wasn't a new release, there was no promotion.

Just my personal experience.

Erick

[Erick Wujcik]

What follows is my opinion. I'm not an official spokesman for Palladium Books... but I've been a friend of the owner since before it was founded, and a freelance writer/designer from its very first RPG product (that would be "The Mechanoid Invasion").

I would note that there is one company that does very very well on the "supplement treadmill--" it has a few game lines which it produces mad amounts of supplements for, and seems to stay pretty solvent.  That company is Palladium Books.

In my experience Palladium Books produces fewer supplements than many other role-playing publishers.

However, Palladium's supplements tend to stay in print, and stay on the shelves.

For example, to the best of my recollection, with the exception of the loss of a line (Palladium no longer has the rights to Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, or Robotech), or replacement by a new edition, none of the books I wrote for Palladium have ever gone out of print.

I wrote Revised RECON for Palladium in 1986, and Advanced RECON the following year. Both are still in print, combined into Deluxe RECON. If you go through my list of publications (http://www.47rpg.com/resume/Publications.html), you'll find that nearly all my Palladium work is still in print.

I'd love to see some comments as to how they pull this off, although I know that they are a rather secretive company and thus even less information is available than one might expect.

Hardly what I'd call 'secretive.'

Kevin Siembieda is the president of Palladium Books, as well as the chief writer, designer and editor. He designed the principle RPG system, and wrote the three 'core' rulebooks; Palladium Fantasy, Heroes Unlimited, and Rifts (he also wrote some of the other rulebooks, but so have others, including myself).

His wife Maryann left a year or so ago, and they are now divorced.

As far as full-time employees, there are really only four. A sales & marketing guy (Steve), an editor (Wayne, editor of the Rifter), and a couple of shipping/warehouse people. Add a couple of part-time 'support' people, and a bunch of freelance writers and artists, and the payroll is less than some of the start-ups I've seen.

At one time or another, there's been plenty posted on their website, and if you ask Kevin at a convention, he's pretty open in his opinions about his company and the industry.

Again, in my (pretty biased) opinion, Palladium aims to pack a lot of value into each book, and that translates into long-term sales.

Erick

[Erick Wujcik]

...{Kevin Siembieda/Palladium Books}'s gotten a massive amount of return on the same 40 or so pages of rules for the last 15-20 years.

This is actually a rather good point.

The  Palladium Books core system has remained relatively fixed over a couple of decades. Yet the products have sold in the hundreds of thousands (my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness sold over 180,000 copies, just for the basic rulebook).

Why?

Because Palladium provided the customers what they really wanted, which was (1) cool characters to play, (2) fun-filled worlds to Game Master, and (3) lots and lots of potential adventures.

My opinion, of course...

Erick
[/i]

[ethan_greer]

Hmm...

So, it seems like (from anecdotal evidence) that the supplement treadmill can work, provided that you have a core product that is popular.

It would seem then that entering the market with a plan to produce a gazillion supplements is problematic.  Instead, new publishers should first put out books tentatively and at as low a risk as possible until they get a bonified hit.  Once that happens, it's much safer and more plausible to jump on the treadmill, producing supplements for their hit game.

Thoughts?

[xiombarg]

I'd like to say that I really, really appreciate Erick weighing in on this stuff, particularly in terms of Amber Diceless being "too small" for distributors. I think the focus on "new product" is very, very real, and it only intensified after the CCG craze.

So, it seems like (from anecdotal evidence) that the supplement treadmill can work, provided that you have a core product that is popular.

Well, if I'm interpreting what Erick said correctly, it's sort of a combination of supplements and "consistent sales" allowing one the remain solvent.

It would seem then that entering the market with a plan to produce a gazillion supplements is problematic.  Instead, new publishers should first put out books tentatively and at as low a risk as possible until they get a bonified hit.  Once that happens, it's much safer and more plausible to jump on the treadmill, producing supplements for their hit game.

Except that that trick only seems to have worked so well for Vampire: The Masquerade, as Malcolm pointed out. At some point you get "mined out".

Of course, it might be a matter of how hard you hit the treadmill. Palladium puts out supplements at a decent rate, but at a lot less furious rate than White Wolf. Also, the multiversal background of Rifts arguably allows for a larger variety of supplements than Vampire, as you can just make up a new dimension whenever you want, and a particularly popular book can become a whole line, like Phase World did.

Erick makes another point that I'd like to address real quick: I don't think anyone here denies that setting sells. Vampire and Rifts are proof of that. Hell, I've even considered running a Rifts game using a system I can tolerate better, like Big Eyes: Small Mouth.

However, this doesn't mean that system doesn't matter, particularly for actual play, as opposed to sales. While I am drifting into a topic that is perhaps better addressed on the "Forge Hubris" thread, it's important for people to remember that "System Matters" is NOT the same thing as "Setting Doesn't Matter", a false impression that some people sometimes get about that line of Forge thought. (Further thoughts on this would be perhaps best in another thread, but I wanted to mention this real quick.)

[Valamir]

(my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness sold over 180,000 copies, just for the basic rulebook).

That's an interesting number Erick.  I'm curious as to the following:

1) what period of time does that represent, and do you have an idea of what the sales cycle was?  i.e. does that represent a fairly consistant 18,000/yr for 10 years, or 100,000 the first year, and 8,800/yr after that?

2)How many printruns / how large are the individual print runs for a book like this.  I'm betting this doesn't represent a single 200,000 unit run, but are the runs typically 10-20,000 units or 4-5,000 units for comparable products.

3) Can you provide clarification on "sold".  Does this suggest there are 180,000 gamers with a copy of the book sitting on their shelf?  Or 80,000 gamers with a copy of the book sitting on their shelf and 100,000 copies sitting in a warehouse / retailer discount racks?  For games that have sales like this, do you have any feel for where in the spectrum they lie between # of copies that have entered the distribution channel vs. # of copies that actually wind up being sold to gamers.?

[mearls]

I think there's one dimension that's been overlooked in this discussion.

Many times, there is no division between an RPG company's creators and business people. They either have similar mind sets or they are the same people. This can cause a tremendous barrier to looking at a game line's sales and deciding that it's time to pull the plug. If a game is your creative pride and joy, it's awfully had to order its death (IOW, put it out of print or stop making new stuff for it.)

This problem is further exacerbated if a company can't come up with a new RPG line to take the old one's place. In that case, the company is stuck squeezing more releases from a dead line.

As for the thesis that the distributors are behind the treadmill, I think it isn't as clear cut as it might seem. A distributor likes to buy books that sell. A successful RPG line that spawns a steady stream of releases is a good thing to them. I think the demand for a full line draws on two things:

1. A distributor only has so much time and money to go around. A big line with lots of ads and support shows that you're serious about generating interest. Granted, it might all be a show, but the distributor is going to be much more eager to deal with a publisher that seems serious about making a success of it at an order of magnitude greater than what you're looking for.

2. The new thing sells, but perhaps only because the old thing doesn't. You might sell 2000 core books to the distributors, and the next month they want a supplement, not more core books, because no one wants to order the core book any more. The stores have sold enough and have a copy on the shelf, but a new book might sell to your newly minted customers.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

Clarification note: Erick, you were quoting & replying to FFG Greg, not to me. My outlook parallels yours, and I suggest that the time we're discussing (very late 80s) was the point at which the three-tier system shifted into an aggressive periodical-style approach toward publishing.

Best,
Ron

[Ron Edwards]

Whoa, lots of posts ...

Mike (mearls), I wouldn't like to encourage a conspiratorial interpretation of the distributors' and others' roles in RPG history. "Behind it all" really isn't what I'm after.

I think everyone's actions in this history can be understood in terms of economic self-benefit, but that doesn't necessarily mean people thought about it in that way. It's very easy to see a distinct benefit to oneself as "only natural" or to phrase it to oneself or others in terms of mutual benefit, even when it isn't very.

Best,
Ron

[mearls]

Whoa, lots of posts ...

Mike (mearls), I wouldn't like to encourage a conspiratorial interpretation of the distributors' and others' roles in RPG history. "Behind it all" really isn't what I'm after.

Oh, I agree. If I wanted to put the blame someone, I'd lay it on the perception that companies have been successful with it, rather than any sort of directed effort. But that's neither here nor there.

I think everyone's actions in this history can be understood in terms of economic self-benefit, but that doesn't necessarily mean people thought about it in that way. It's very easy to see a distinct benefit to oneself as "only natural" or to phrase it to oneself or others in terms of mutual benefit, even when it isn't very.

Ah, I see. All is clear now. I agree completely - the distributors have a view of what makes a "winner" and that directly or indirectly filters through the industry. In some cases, those traits do bear sales fruit, at least as far as my contacts and research goes. OTOH, if you don't have use for the distributors model, they don't offer you much.

One thing to keep in mind is that RPGs are increasingly a marginal activity for hobby game distributors when compared to miniatures, CCGs, German boardgames, hell, even stuffed Cthulhu dolls. I think that drives a lot of the preference toward full color, heavily supported game lines. You're stuck competing on the distributor level with products that precisely rely on the supplement treadmill to keep customers happy.

But I will say that at least in some cases, RPG companies can do very well through the three tier system. However, it takes a level of clear-eyed practicality that can prove intimidating. The problem arises when you take a game that should see its first life as a PDF, or a 50 copy print run sold at conventions, and try to package it up for distribution to all 3 tiers.

Of course, you already know that.

[Erick Wujcik]

...Erick, you were quoting & replying to FFG Greg, not to me. My outlook parallels yours...

Sorry. It was an editing error on my part.

Erick

[Erick Wujcik]

That's an interesting number Erick (180,000 copes of the TMNT RPG).  I'm curious as to the following

Since I'm not the actual publisher (just the writer/designer), and since I don't have my yearly royalty statements at hand, I can't give you exact numbers, but I can certainly make some decent estimates.

1) what period of time does that represent, and do you have an idea of what the sales cycle was?  i.e. does that represent a fairly consistant 18,000/yr for 10 years, or 100,000 the first year, and 8,800/yr after that?

Most of the sales took place in the first few years after the initial release (1985). Sales probably peaked in 1987. At a guess, I'd say that 80% of the sales were in the first three years. for the following ten years, sales were a couple of thousand per year...

The main thing to bear in mind is that as soon as the TMNT cartoon hit it big, the role-playing game sales tanked, sank, and disappeared. The original fans were, mostly, in their late teens... and as soon as the TMNT were 'cool' for their five year old siblings, the game was dead.

2)How many printruns / how large are the individual print runs for a book like this.  I'm betting this doesn't represent a single 200,000 unit run, but are the runs typically 10-20,000 units or 4-5,000 units for comparable products.

The initital press run, if I remember correctly, was around 10,000. There were a lot of editions (14? -- seems about right). I think most were in the 10-20,000 range.

A guide for the curious:

First Edition: Look on the spine, if it reads "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and other Strangness" (missing the 'e' after the 'g'), then it's the very first edition.

Early Editions: The front cover text is all black.

Revised Edition: The front cover text is an outlined yellow... The copy on the shelf next to me is a 'Revised' TMNT, the 6th printing, from 1988.

3) Can you provide clarification on "sold".

Sold means sold.

Back in those days everything went through distributors, and on a non-returnable basis.

There were 180,000 copies printed, and I've got no reason to believe that the vast majority didn't end up in the hands of gamers... or at least readers.

When the license between Mirage (the owner of the TMNT IP) and Palladium ended, there weren't many copies of the basic game left. In fact, I wanted to buy a box for my personal collection, and there were none left at Palladium (I ended up buying about 20 copies from, as I recall, Wargames West).

For games that have sales like this, do you have any feel for where in the spectrum they lie between # of copies that have entered the distribution channel vs. # of copies that actually wind up being sold to gamers.?

It's a good question.

For TMNT the answer is that very close to 100% went to gamers... but that's because the main sales were back in the late 1980s, and there was plenty of time to sell out what remained in the warehouse. And also because Palladium was selling on a non-returnable basis.

It would be a considerably different story today, since a lot of companies sell through the book distribution network, where massive initial sales can be as much as a liability as an asset when huge numbers of books (or just ripped off covers, depending on the contract) end up back with the publisher.

Erick

[FFG Greg]

The  Palladium Books core system has remained relatively fixed over a couple of decades. Yet the products have sold in the hundreds of thousands (my own Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles & Other Strangeness sold over 180,000 copies, just for the basic rulebook).
[/i]

Erick, this seems to contradict what you said in response to my claim, i.e., that distributors only want to "sell new" and will only support big lines with lots of supplements. I could be wrong, but I don't recall TMNT having a lot of supplement support.

I'll repeat what I said: If you publish a core book that sells like crazy without supplement support, something like TMNT, the distributors will love you for it. If you publish a core book that sells...not so much...without supplement support, they'll love you not so much.

[Ron Edwards]

Hi Greg,

With respect, I think that TMNT in the mid-late 1980s, as with D&D in the late 70s and Vampire in the early 90s, is a poor example for discussing general trends and tactics.

All three represent a brief correspondence of role-playing material with a wave of "teen craze" purchasing. That's distinct from fan purchasing or anything else associated with SF or pop subculture - it literally means a ton of people who are buying the game as gear.

It doesn't last long (although it makes a huge impression on retailer re-ordering habits that does last), and I think it's best viewed as a lucky draw rather than a reliable tactic that can be generalized across publishing in general.

Best,
Ron

[Lxndr]

TMNT had some supplement support - certainly a significant number of supplements for a game whose heyday was in the late 80s and early 90s (even if it's a small amount of supplement support compared to later games).  There were several adventures (Turtles go to Hollywood being the only one I remember), a number of expansions (Transdimensional TMNT, whatever the name of the Turtles in Space book was).  And of course the entirety of the After the Bomb series (After the Bomb, Road Hogs, Mutants Down Under, Mutants in Avalon, Mutants of the Yucatan).

Combine that with the fact that TMNT wound up, a few years later, being "supplemented" by the sales of non-RPG TMNT product thanks to the popularity of the show (which, according to the official TMNT website, can be blamed in part on the RPG), and after that the combined popularity of the rest of the Palladium products (Rifts being the big one), TMNT managed to feed off everything else like a remora.

TMNT is definitely not typical, by dint of the TV show alone.  But I think its supplement support was pretty significant for the time period in which is was made.