offhand penalties

[coryblack_666]

a quick search didnt help me much and i couldnt find it in the books.  What are the penalties for fighting with your off hand?  Also, what might be a way to use two swords other than rapiers?  And would the -2 to cut and thrust apply to just using a single rapier?

[Mike Holmes]

When taught to fight, you learn with one hand, as I understand it. Basically, learning to use the other hand would be an entirely separate proficiency. So the "penalty" would be to lose almost all dice from proficiency, I think.

That's to say that Westly and Inigo both had to have been trained in left hand fighting (in addition to right) for the scene to make sense in the real world.

Mike

[Tash]

I know most people disagree with me here, but I've never felt off hand penalties in games were realistic.  Maybe its my own personal bias, but you can learn to use your non genetically dominant hand just as effectively in any endevor.  I was born left handed, but as a kid I severely burned my entire left arm.  Between ICU, bandages and surgeries it was more than a year before I could use it again.  By that time I had learned to write and was considered right handed.

Once I got into martial arts and related pursuits I started switching off.  My first Sensei was adamant that you should never rely on one hand, all techniques should be done with both hands in stances favoring either side.  Lots of begining students had a problem with this, I didn't.  For me it was just switching back to my real dominant hand.

But by the time I got to intermediate ranking everyone in every class was equally comfortable with both hands.  It's one of those things that is only hard because few people bother to do it, and isn't quite as dramatic as learning to figh all over again (unless maybe you are someone like Jamie Lanister in Clash of Kings...master swordsman who looses one hand and has to relearn how to fight having never picked up a blade in his left before).

The same goes for shooting, all the good shooters I know can shoot with either hand.  Actually I'm one of the few who has a real noticable preference: I'm notably less accurate with my right hand on the trigger.  I prefer lefty, though I always have to swtich to my right hand to change mags (why do gun companies make ambidextrous safeties but only right handed mag releases?)

[Dain]

actually have first hand input here. I've been fencing for a few years now, and I blew out a forearm muscle last year and had to either switch hit or wait months and months to heal...so naturally I said damn the torpedos and bought a second set of all left handed equipment, vests, etc,.....(I'm a righty, but thought I'd give lefty a shot because I too have never had much problem flipping between left and right). While I found my technique was actually superior with that hand, coordination holding a long spindly piece of metal was completely absent. Probably I could have caught up with my right arm if I stuck with it long enough, but after 6 months I still sucked compared to my righty and my right arm healed so I switched back. In short, my brain kwew what to do and had no problem mirroring the technique, and my muscles positioned the blade exactly correctly accordingly, but the dynamic of movement did not translate over at all. Perfect motion (thanks brain and muscles) but painfully...and lethally had it been real life or death combat...slow. My fencing Maestro remarked that my ability to switch at all and do the moves with such accuracy and with as much speed as I did exectute the maneuvers was extremely unusual in his experience, and he basically attributed it to my being nearly ambidextrous in the first place with a mind unusually skilled in quickly converting the geometry...and basically remarked he probably could make a far more deadly fencer out of me lefty if I stuck it out than I would be as a righty...but it would take a lot of time and a lot of practice.

So in short, no...inequivocably no...skill in one hand does not normally translate to the other hand...even in people nearing ambidexterity. The knowledge sticks, and maybe even the muscle ability, but the muscle memory has to be rebuilt and the new hand has to be taught how to deal with motion. Anyone can point the weapon statically in exactly a correct stance given sufficient training...but it's the movement from A to B where the previously unused muscles have to learn how to deal with shifting centers of gravity, weight, leverage, etc,..... and build muscle memory for reflex actions.

...at least that was MY first hand experience. Others may have had different results.

[Turin]

Looking at a sport like basketball, where the sport is their profession, almost all players can perform basic manuvers with both hands.  But even training with both hands, many are still one hand dominant.  I think it is something that can be trained, but varied by individual, there will usually be some degree of dominance in one hand.

I gues think the reverse, to those of us that play baseball, throwing is very uncomfortable with the offhand, but catching is also uncomfortable with the primary hand.  Muscle memory I would think.

[coryblack_666]

so you guys are sayin just to come up with my own rules? lol.  I was wondering about game mechanics and penalties guys.   Not how physicaly possible it was.  I've never trained with much for weapons, other than i had a few classes with a set of tonfa's and bo's.   Tonfa's traditionaly being used in both hands so you trained them both at the same time and there was no diferance with either hand when using them.  And the bo' is also trained both left and right handed.

[Turin]

Okay, I think we did a bit of an overanalysis.

But if you are looking at 2 weapon use, I would think there would not have been much training for this, other than the types listed (off-hand - shield, main-gauche, etc.).  Western martial arts do not seem to have much akin to the 2 Tonfa or Sai style.  I've heard of shortswords used in this fashion, but don't recall if this is more of a fantasy combo or real.

I don't see any sword/mace or handaxe/hammer combos being used realisticaly to good effect.

[Dain]

Sorry...my bad. My topic was off target and was more of a counterpoint to Tash's comment

but I've never felt off hand penalties in games were realistic

rather than an actual response to the initial post. As far as game mechanics go, I'm afraid I'm still pretty new here and don't know the correct answer. What I do know is that the combat system in TROS is supposed to be fairly realistic, so my only 2 cents is that if handedness makes a difference in real life then I would assume the authors would want that reflected in some fashion in their system as well.

I don't recall reading a specific rule...well...let me pause for a sec and skim a bit........yeah, I don't see anything either. Maybe Jake or Brian will stop by and say hi on this one.

Barring the visit from those on high, I would make a house rule call of some nature. My suggestion would be to assume one penalty if the weapon is normally trained in both hands OR the character daily goes out of his way (at cost of time and money) to practice/train in both hands....and assume a more severe penalty if that is not the case. Coming up with completely unapproved Bull here. Maybe in the first case no penalty at all or 1 or 2 dice penalty at most. In the later case I'd almost suggest reducing the skill by -4 (worst default I see off the descriptions in the book for defaulting from one style to another) with a maximum result of 6 (max default for style defaulting if I'm not mistaken) and a minimum result of 1...then add that to your base Reflex derived stat. If negative dice don't turn you on, could suggest alternate method of halving or even thirding the skill (round down) with the same min and max.

Just my off the top of the head BS. I could be all wet.

[Dain]

One older thread does discuss this too:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=6655&highlight=hand+penalty

Still looking to see if I can find others....

added edit number 1:

SUCCESS! Jake himself hits this old thread three times on the topic:

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/viewtopic.php?t=3189&highlight=hand+penalty

added edit number 2:
ah, I see the man of the hour posted while I was adding edit number 1. There you go.

[Jake Norwood]

Offhandedness makes a difference...sometimes. In the existing proficiencies, for example, that have an off-hand weapon, there's no penalty. Using the Main-gauche in the left hand as part of a sword-and-dagger combo is standard and well-trained into such a fighter. If that same fighter put the sword in his off-hand, however, he'd be hurtin' with it somethin' fierce.

I'm not sure that there's an official off-hand penalty in the book, but I would currently say that fighting with a primary-hand-weapon (based on the profiencies as-learned) in the non-primary hand would cut the Proficiency (not CP) by as much as half or more, unless lots of time had been spent training that way.

Jake

[Starshadow]

Hi folks.

Our group made aquick and dirty ruling on this a while back.

When using your off-hand for fighting with a main weapon:
  -1CP if AG 9-10
  -2CP if AG 7-8
  -3CP if AG 5-6...

Maybe we're way off, but...

What do you think?

[Vagabond Elf]

I'd be more inclined to either do it as a flat penalty, or base it off something else - MA, maybe - if you want the sliding scale there.

The bloke with low AG is already suffering from a lower Reflex, and so is less able to cope with the penalty; the bloke with really high AG will have a higher Reflex and can cope with it better.  So the effect you seem to be after, of a high AG character dealing with it better, is built in there.

The defaults to something really different seem to be about -4, so that's what I'd be inclined to do for off-hand, and I'd let people train up in it if they want to.  (For appropriate proficiencies; Pugilism & Wrestling, for example, I wouldn't bother.  My Ringen instruction uses as much left-hand punches as right.)

[Turin]

For appropriate proficiencies; Pugilism & Wrestling, for example, I wouldn't bother. My Ringen instruction uses as much left-hand punches as right.

Agreed.  I think any hand to hand combat training will train both shands/feet.  Although the unskilled would have more proiciency with their primary hand/foot.

For weapon usage (unless weapon/shield, weapon main-gauche, etc.) I also would not do a sliding penalty based on agility.  Some very deft people have problems using both hands.  I would somehow make it trainable, starting perhaps at -5 or -4 for a start, trainable (with much time and difficulty) to a -2 or -1.  There could be some "gifts" that allow it to be trained to a -1 or 0 (if the -2 is used, only if course to 0 if the -1 is used).  I would allow 2 Sais or Tonfas to be used without penalty, if using an eastern martial arts style (more combinations of course would be available as well).  Maybe an idea for something a bit more unusual like 2 nunchaku - require a proficiency of 6 or so to use both without penalty.  You could even make the penalty for the off-hand nunchaku to be
6-proficiency.

[Starshadow]

... or base it off something else - MA, maybe - if you want the sliding scale there.

I disagree.

Agility (AG) is a measure of nimbleness, dexterity, speed and hand-eye coordination.

I'd say that's the right attribute to use...

The bloke with low AG is already suffering from a lower Reflex, and so is less able to cope with the penalty; the bloke with really high AG will have a higher Reflex and can cope with it better. So the effect you seem to be after, of a high AG character dealing with it better, is built in there.

The defaults to something really different seem to be about -4, so that's what I'd be inclined to do for off-hand, and I'd let people train up in it if they want to.

If you use our scale, an average person (AG 4), would get a -4 penalty.
That would make it equally hard to cope with as a flat penalty. Same agility = same reflex = equally difficult.

And we do it because it's a lot easier than using (partially) another proficiency. You'd have to use SP to increase that ability (off-hand fighting), and you'd have to use SP to increase your AG...

It may not be true to Real Life (TM), but it makes the game a little more realistic, and we won't drown in new rules.

[bottleneck]

It may not be true to Real Life (TM), but it makes the game a little more realistic, and we won't drown in new rules.

Disclaimer: I'm a gamer, not a fencer.

It seems to me that this whole discussion is relevant only in the case of a fighter losing a hand - presumably his dominant hand. Is see no reason why you would switch weapon hands unless you have to.

Fighting one-handed could be as much a problem as fighting 'wrong-handed' if you're trained with two weapons. If you install a hook or 'arming glove' on the stump, you're basically using cut-and-thrust, rapier, sword-and-glove or mass weapon-and-glove (or plain dagger). So an offhand penalty for these is required. E.g. case of rapiers defaults to rapier when one-handed (perhaps equally well for either hand), polearms and such are impossible to use etc.

MY POINT: different styles (different training) would solve this problem differently. [actually both problems: both one-hander and wrong-hander problems].
A doppelhander fighter defaulting to a 1-h style has probably never picked up a sword in his left, but the cut-and-thrust kid is used to both defending and attacking with his dagger and should adapt quicker.