[New Game, New Designer] My first steps into the pool

[MarkMeredith]

Hey all. I'm new here. I've got a game system concept, and coming up with any way to flesh it out.
Basic Mechanic: D100, roll low. Percentile system style.
You'd have a series (7, 10, 15) of Base Attributes.
Special Abilities would modify the Base Attributes, and have other abilities.
That's it.
See, I want it to be simple, but I don't know whether this is Gamist, Simulationist, Narativist, Marxist, Sexist, or anything else. I'd like to work this idea out into a good system, but I don't want to start adding skills, etc. I want to keep it simple.
I also don't know if I should make this a generic system, or wax heavily upon a certain setting. Like I said, I'm new...

[MarkMeredith]

In another thread, Technocrat13 told me

Naw... Don't flesh out any rules yet. We wanna hear what your game's about. Are you making it for you & your group? Are you making it to publish? What would someone pick your game over, say... GURPS, or FUDGE, or any of the other functional 'generic' games out there?

I'm not sure whether or not the game's for my group, or not. I think people would choose it over the others for one of the same reasons that the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy is better selling than the Encyclopedia Galactica: It's slightly cheaper (my rulebook won't have Don't Panic on the cover, unfortunately.) Gurps is simple enough, but I'm not a fan, and I've heard that FUDGE is all about numbers crunching, and I don't want that. I want my book to be small enough to be staple-bound, but not RISUS level simple.

[TonyLB]

What game systems have you been exposed to?  Which ones have you had satisfying play experiences in?  I'm trying to get a bead on what ideas are old hat to you, and what might be new or inspiring.

[Andrew Morris]

So far, I've heard nothing at all to help me understand your game. Why would I play this as opposed to...well, anything else -- GURPS or FUDGE, for example?

What makes your game unique?

Without knowing that, I can't really comment. If you're looking for feedback on the mechanic, it's pretty standard; I've seen it, or something like it several times.

[MarkMeredith]

What game systems have you been exposed to? Which ones have you had satisfying play experiences in? I'm trying to get a bead on what ideas are old hat to you, and what might be new or inspiring.

I've run quite a bit of D20, played and run Inquisitor, and I have Burning Wheel. I think Burning Wheel is one of the most innovative changes to the RPG system I've seen. I'm really interested in making this game, but I just don't know what to do with those key points I pointed out earlier. I like the idea of characters having Beliefs, and getting to change the outcome of a roll (Complications) but I don't want to steal it.

So far, I've heard nothing at all to help me understand your game. Why would I play this as opposed to...well, anything else -- GURPS or FUDGE, for example?
What makes your game unique?

The reason that you would choose it over GURPS is because of the Percentile system. I think it's a much more concrete way of showing a character's skill. Instead of you saying "oh, my character is a 15 on his Combat skill", and no one knows if that's good or bad without knowing the rules, with percentile systems you say "my character's combat skill is 60%".
I've never played FUDGE.

The advantage over the other systems is that it would be easy to explain and get into (without being too incredibly simple).
I'm not trying to innovate the industry here. I'm just trying to make a freakin' game.

Any more help would be appreciated.

[Eric Provost]

I'm not trying to innovate the industry here. I'm trying to make a freakin' game.

Try not to let Forge-speak get under your skin.  We're totally not trying to agitate you here.  The really-long way to ask what Andrew asked is;  "If you're trying to create a new game we're assuming that you haven't found a game that does what you want to do yet otherwise you'd be playing that game.  So, by asking what makes your game unique, we're trying to find out just what you're getting at with this new design."

It's really not a way to say "If you're game's not unique, innovative, and cutting edge, then butt out."

Don't sweat any of the Sim/Gam/Nar stuff right now.  If you're anything like me it'll take you quite a bit of reading to get that stuff in your brain.  Take your time with it.  That stuff is really useful but not essential to desiging a game.

So, you're familiar with d20, Inquisitor, and Burning Wheel.  Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Inquisitor, and a google check wasn't much help.  "Inquisitor" is just used too often in RPGs for me to get a bead on what game you might be talking about.  But I am pretty familiar with d20 and I've got a copy of 1st Ed Burning Wheel, which I've never played.  So, I know 2 of 3 of the games you're familiar with.

Now, you've got a handful of ideas for how you'd like your system to look, right?  You seem to want to make it clear from the outset how good a particular character is at doing particular things.  But what you don't have is a game concept.  You use that word but you really don't have one yet.  Or at least you haven't shared one with us yet.

Dig this;

In D&D players create characters to kill monsters and take their stuff.

Over-simple?  Maybe, but that's the heart of it, isn't it?  So, what's the concept of your game?  What will the players do?  Be as specific as you can.  "Players create characters that go on adventures and explore stuff." is kinda wide-open, over-done, and well... weak.  It dosen't tell us anything about a game.  But boy do new people here at the Forge ever say that a lot.  :D

So, tell us what you want your game to be about.  Be specific.  And don't sweat "original" or "unique".  Those aren't prerequisites to creating a game.

-Eric

[MarkMeredith]

Try not to let Forge-speak get under your skin. We're totally not trying to agitate you here.

Ok. It seemed a little like he was saying:

"If you're game's not unique, innovative, and cutting edge, then butt out."

but I understand now. Thanks.
As far as Inquisitor goes, you can download the rules at: http://www.specialist-games.com/inquisitor/tlr.asp It's half RPG half miniatures game. Pretty cool for those of us who like both.
Anyway, I want to have the game be more like Burning Wheel in... I guess "style" is the word?

In D&D players create characters to kill monsters and take their stuff.

I don't want that. I want a system that's Epicly Heroic. A Game that is reminiscent of Star Wars/LOTR/Odyssey. Does that help?

[TonyLB]

Well, from a certain point of view both Star Wars and LOTR are "Heroes kill bad guys, and blow up their stuff."

From another point of view, of course, they're both "Heroes wrestle with their own doubts about embracing a greater destiny, and are both held back and inspired by the failures of the past (their own and those of others).  When they learn to have faith that not only their own strength but their own weaknesses are what is needed for their destiny, that moment is victory, and all else follows."

You can make perfectly fun, workable, thrilling games around either of those premises.  They're very different games, of course.  And one guy will say "Game A is exactly Star Wars, while Game B totally misses the point"... and then another guy will say "Game A totally misses the point, but Game B is exactly Star Wars."

So, basically, the great stories have a lot of stuff going on, all at once, with individual themes supporting and structuring each other in tremendously involved ways.  Nobody's going to mimic all that, except by exactly reproducing the story itself.  What people are trying to get at is "What's the bit that makes Star Wars what it is, to you?"  The bit that says that (for instance) the Millenium Falcon dodging through asteroids is key, but Luke sneaking through the corridors of Bespin is just filler.  Or vice versa.

There's no globally right answer.  But there's a true answer for you, and that's where I'd advise you to begin.

[MarkMeredith]

"Heroes wrestle with their own doubts about embracing a greater destiny, and are both held back and inspired by the failures of the past (their own and those of others).  When they learn to have faith that not only their own strength but their own weaknesses are what is needed for their destiny, that moment is victory, and all else follows."

Wow... Can I use that? That is exactly what I want. I wasn't sure before, but now I know that that is what I want. "The Hero of a Thousand Faces" if you will. Thanks!
But now how do I implement that into my game? Add Doubt points that they must slowly clear away? Make everyone have a Hook that they are trying to resolve?

[Andrew Morris]

Eric, thanks for taking the time to soften my words. I have no tact.

Mark, I still don't know what I need to know about your game to offer any useful feedback, and I assume that's what you're looking for.

"Epicly Heroic" says very little. That could mean we play warring gods. It could mean we play action movie-type heroes. It could mean we take on the roles of the characters from Beowulf. It could mean a nearly infinite range of things.

Look at it this way. Percentile systems have been around for a while. I can take any percentile system from another game and use it to play in any world. I can't imagine that anyone is going to see a percentile-based system and get all fired up about it. If you've got a cool setting, people will play it for that, and if you can tie the mechanics to that, so much the better. Sure, there are games with amazing, innovative mechanics -- Universalis, Dogs in the Vineyard, Capes -- but I don't play them because of the mechanics, I play them because something about the game as a whole captures my imagination, and I say to myself, "Self, you can't do this with any other system." For Universalis, I play it for GM-less, collaborative storytelling. For Dogs in the Vineyard, I play it to take on the role of a totally cool, morally judgemental soldier of god. For Capes, I play it because I can sit down with any number of friends and be involved in the characters and story within five minutes, with no preparation at all.

Do you see what I'm getting at?

[MarkMeredith]

Do you see what I'm getting at?

I do. On your website for Schrodinger's war, you have a few Design Goals.
some of them are:

* Clean, unified mechanics, with few exceptions and special rules
* Simple rules, complex play
* Modular rules (core with customized expansions)

That is also the type of thing that I'm talking about. The first two I've been saying for a while now, and I had been thinking with having such a small book that I'd need to do your 3rd point there as well. I'm not going to steal from your rules at all. But I think that those 3 sum up my goals as well.

[Andrew Morris]

Two things. First, I can't take credit for Schrodinger's War; that's an open group effort, and everyone's welcome to participate. Second, design goals aren't why people play games. For all I know, Tony set out to make Capes a super-crunchy, rules-intense combat game, requiring tons of setting knowledge in order to play, but failed. It doesn't change why I play the game, or why anyone else would want to play.

Now, knowing your goals is important, too. Then you can ask if specific components seem to support your goals. That's an entirely different ball of wax. It's also much easier to deal with than a general, "Here's my game. What do you think?"

So, taking the goals of clean mechanics and simple rules, let's look at what you've stated so far.

Percentile system: Sure, they're simple and easy. If everything's on the same scale, then it seems nice and unified.

Basic attributes: Same as above.

Special abilities: I'd need to know more about these. Perhaps an example or two would help?

Other abilities: Again, what are they like, and how do they work?

[MarkMeredith]

Special Ability Examples:

Plain Dumb Luck: Your character is incredibly lucky. Once per game, a single roll that fails succeeds. It has to be at a dramatically appropriate moment, and the GM has to agree to it.

First Aid Training: Your character has learned basic First Aid. Gain +10% to your (Blahblahblah) Attribute when performing basic medical procedures.

Things like that. These are simply examples. Different Special Abilities would be worth different points, and there would be a point Buy system.

Also, I'd have something like the Beliefs in Burning Wheel, and other "Non-Game-Mechanic" add ins as well that you would have to answer. I like the idea in Burning Wheel of it asking you questions to decide where your character is with his stats (have you ever had a cold? Add 1 to your Steel). I'd like to incorporate some of that as well, without stealing full chunks of ideas. Anything else that I should come up with? I think mixing these different elements together is beginning to make my game unique and different, and worthy of notice.

Also, in my town, we've got a pretty big RPG presence,and the way this town is, people will just buy a game if they know it was made locally. People still brag that MYST was invented here...

Anyway, any more help would be appreciated. It seems like we got off on the wrong foot, Andrew, (probably my fault for not knowing how things work around here) but I'm really appreciating your help. Thank you.

Questions, comments, burns?

[Trevis Martin]

Hey Mark, Welcome

No "wrong foot" dude, you're doing fine. We just love to talk about games in the single worst communcation medium ever invented. :)  Sometimes it bites us in the ass.  Just assume that everyone has a big smile on their face when they write you, or at least a grin.

I know Inquisitor pretty well.  I've always liked 40K, pastiche though it may be.

What I'd like to hear is what your game is about.  I'm a player playing your game...what do the characters do?  I mean, inquisitor is pretty specific, you're either an Inqisitor or part of an Inquisitors retinue and you travel the galaxy investigating and eliminating threats to the Imperium.  

Burning Wheel is a little more vague, but its not a generic or 'universal' system.  Its about playing epic medieval fantasy, like in the works of LeGuin or Tolkien.  Your characters are heros out to do great deeds.  (Sure I know it can be about other things but, y'know, in ten words or less.)

Look at what Schrodenger's War is about too

Archivists, non-corporeal entities who seek the answers to arcane questions throughout space and time by "borrowing" human bodies.

to which I say "cool, I wanna check this out!"

All those guys are striving to hook up their general design goals and specific mechanics up with that concept.  Generally folks around these parts  accept the idea that you make a system to fit in with what your game is about, that mechanically hooks into and reinforces the basic idea of your game rather than being something you can just transplant around to whatever setting you want.

Sure there are more generic games here.  Universalis for example.  I would argue that Uni is really 'about' a particluar collaborative play experience rather than any particualar setting, and it's mechanics are explicitly designed to support that play.  Primetime Adventures, also, is pretty generic as far as setting but its concept is that it is out to specifically emulate the structure and quality of television melodrama.

So I think what most people in this thread are looking for is a concept to hang their advice on.  We want to understand what kind of play style you are looking to encourage.  Maybe what kinds of setting and stiuations you're shooting for.  What do the characters do in your game?

When people earlier have said 'if its a generic game, why should I play it?' they aren't dismissing the idea of a setting neutral game, they are asking about what makes the game special.  You see, generic catch all systems have been done a lot, with all kinds of different ways to do things.  If you are making a generic system, what is prompting you to make it?  Is there something you're trying to get it to do in play different from other things you've tried?  What excites you about your idea?

Some of it might involve looking at other systems that are in the ballpark of your vision (and even not) and seeing how they do things.

We don't want to shoot our guns in all directions, so we need you, the visionary of this game, to pin a target up there for us so we can think in the right direction.

And don't worry about stealing stuff from other games.  That's what all of us do.  Just be cool and give credit where it's due.  Clinton R Nixon's The Shadow of Yesterday is a great game and he openly admits he has taken mechanics of other games and cobbled them into something all his own.

best,

Trevis

[Eric Provost]

Andrew,

No problem, man.  I was pleased to have the chance to do it.  Kinda like some karmic balance for myself after asking so many frustrating-the-establishment questions myself when I first got here.

Mark,

Man, when you picked out those design goals for Shrodinger's War, you totally picked out the tertiary stuff.  The important stuff comes under the headers of Just what the hell is this all about? and What's already been decided?/Core concepts.  The design goals are important, yeah, but they don't say a dang thing about what the game is there for.  

Heh.  I know we're really badgering you on this point but that's just because we find it that important to know what your game is about before we can help.

On to another bit of an issue.  d20, Inquisitor, and Burning Wheel.  Are those the only RPGs you've been exposed to?  'Cause if that's so,... well... To me, that's like saying you've driven two cars, poked your head into a third and decided that you're gonna be better off designing your own car as you haven't found the one that you really liked yet.

So, I've really gotta suggest that you keep reading other games as your working on your own.  Steal everything that looks good.  Read even the games that don't sound like they're even close to what you're trying to do because they might have some little hidden bit in them that you really like, and might want to incorporate into your game.  Check out the Forge's Resource Library for a bunch-o-links to free and nearly free games.  

Oh, and there's a link in my signature to Mike's Rants.  Yeah, they're rants, but really good rants that are really all about the common and collective errors that new game designers tend to fall into.  Good reading.

And, if some of the other Forgites out there could, can we get some talk about other functional percentile systems?  The only only one that I know of is Call of Cthulhu, and that's pretty far from generic.  There's gotta be a percentile-based generic system out there already that Mark could take a peek at, see what's already been done.

-Eric