Tales From The Floating Vagabond is looking for publishing partners

[Eero Tuovinen]

So, the next coupla things, it would seem to me, should be
1) Lee showing us his game, so we can start thinking what kind of help he needs and what kind of product it'll make. For all I know, he should be making the game a monthly electronic journal paid by subscription, or something. We'll need to know more to analyze the potential customer base and such.
2) Some more talk about the hard business facts of publishing, and what those facts mean for rpgs. Thread references for Lee, too. I'm no good with them myself, but I know some of you reading this can point to a bunch of very interesting threads about publishing methods and strategy, not to speak of market segmenting.
3) Lee telling us more about how he values cultural influence, fame, money, fun and all those benefits you get from publishing. This is particularly important, because the publishing strategy should differ radically based on what he's after, and in what order.
The methods for carrying on the discussion, Lee, are of course all in your hands. They all should be done, though, before anybody can make an intelligent decision about whether they want to invest, not to speak of exploring other methods of publication.

To start on the hard business facts, here's me blowing some air: I operate a small rpg business in a country of five million residents. That's less than the population of Chicago, I hear. Obviously, I have to be very conservative and intelligent in making any investments, because there is no big pool of potential customers I could gamble on with shotgun advertising and generic publicity mongering in hopes of creating a fad. All sales are earned through carefully thought-out means of reaching the fringe-of-the-fringe I'm selling to. My marketing budget: only what I pay myself. My warehousing expenses: none. My printing expenses: the last project I printed covered it's printing expenses within a day of coming out of the printer, thanks to an arts grant and quick sales. The bottom line: I'm selling my expertise as a roleplayer, not a dream wrapped between glossy hard-covers. Our customers pay for me picking good games for them, not for marketing.

The point: I operate entirely outside the tier model of publishing and retail, and do it pretty successfully. From what I hear (everybody has to speak for themselves), I'm not too convinced that the big companies can hold a candle to my profit margins. Of course, the business is small, but then, I'm not doing it as a full job, but rather a hobby that pays for itself and more. And the most important thing: I wouldn't in all hell do any of the following, assuming I had a '90s geek gaming property waiting for republishing:
- pay a cent for advertising in paper media.
- pay a cent for advertising in the Internet.
- tying more than $500 bucks in printing.
- launching the game without ample preparation in terms of customer interaction and society building.
- launching a big hardcover without first selling it as a PDF to generate interest.
So we're talking very different paradigms here. So different, in fact, that based on the little that Lee's told us about his plans, I'm not even considering seriously any monetary investment in his project. When that kind of plans are uncertain at best for companies like WotC or WW, it's very nearly just throwing money away for anybody else. Unless Lee has some solid plan for bucking the system and doing things differently?

Now, the important thing for us to know is if Lee is interested in what we're peddling; as far as I know, the indie ideas about publishing and running a business can beat the game store distribution model in terms of profitability, efficiency and assumed risk. However, for publicity and licencing deals and ego there is lot of good to say about traditional ideas. So we need to know what Lee's interested in: getting the game in the shops, making a profit, or becoming famous?

[guildofblades]

>>The successful indie publishers at The Forge, pretty much across the board, aren't interested in the external validation of dollars changing hands and casting a big shadow over the industry.<<

Well, speak for yourself. The validatin of dollars is nice and the more of them the marrier. I'm also interested is slowly building that mega gaming corp that casts a big shadow, but I'm not all that concerned on the "where" that shadow is cast.

>> And they're also not interested in constant reassurances to investors that they haven't lost sight of their ruthless focus on profit.<<

Thats true. Truth be told, most of operate businesses far to small to be beholden to the wants and opinions of investors; especially ones that aren't as intimately involved with the company as its figure heads.

Lee,

The vision you seem to have for the Tales of the Floating Vagabond would very much seem to mirror your understanding of the industry as it existed back when the game was first published. It is nice that you want to accomplish those things, but the market has changed dramatically since that time. If you want to draw in investors, in form of fiscal or time/experience, you will first need to show enough of an understanding of the current market so that you can lay a reasonably detailed business plan in front of those potential investors. Such things as your plan for distribution, production format, price points, marketing plans, etc. Your game was a bit of a kult hit back in its day and that popularity seemed to stretch at least into the mid 90's to some degree. But the RPG market is aging and much of your past market can now be fairly narrowly defined as the "old school" role players, most 30+, and those still interested in indie games (aka, Not D20). In other words, the support you hope to draw from the game's past print life will be coming from a very small and niche part of the current consumer base. You mentioned being disappointed by the ad budget Avalon Hill had used for the previous incarnation. Knowing, ball park, what Avalon Hill used to spend in advertising both to consumers and to the 3 tier system, I can fairly safely say that if you pump that much money into the relaunch of this game, you might achieve reasonable sales figures (500-3000K unit), but won't gross enough to cover those kinds of advertising expenses.

Investors are going to want to earn their investment back at the least and ideally get a return on their investment. Your business plan should show them how you hope to make that happen.

Ryan S. Johnson
Guild of Blades Publishing Group
http://www.guildofblades.com

[leegarv]

Well, there certainly is a lot of advice out here.  Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

I appreciate that I have little sense for business; I am an idea man, and not so adept with practicallities. This is why I am hoping to get a manager for Reality Cheque; one who does know business.

Although, in my defense, I think I do have some knowledge of the industry as it stands today. I spent six years working in one of the biggest retail game stores on the east coast, two of that as buyer. (No, I wasn't fired, I was laid off, because the store was struggling after all our best customers were sent to fight in Iraq).

I have taken steps to renew interest in TF2V - small steps. The original edition is, for instance, available on DriveThruRPG.com. Unfortunately, I have no other web presence currently, and no other way to promote it short of talking about it on message boards.

I am aware that the game as it existed in 1991 would not do very well in today's market. I am therefore changing those elements that I think can help it, without changing the game's basic character.

The endless charts and tables of the Avalon Hill edition are gone, replaced by a single "sliding die" table for everything you may need a die for. The humor is also being doctored. The game was very much a parody game about gaming in the original edition. This was not the intent, but rather what happens when an editor kept asking me to make references to this-or-that in the game (someof them they put into the final product after I was finished).  It was, and will be again, supposed to be a parody of EVERYTHING. Any given adventure should be able to skewer any aspect of life, politics, pop culture, or even science and history, while still remaining a fun game to play, with a solid adventurous feel to it that isn't entirely overshadowed or trivialized by the comedy.

Jumping topics again, what I have seen sell in stores is good-looking, well-edited games with solid and unique premises, good word-of-mouth, and good distribution. I see plenty of games with only two or three of these do fairly well, but all things being equal, I want it all. A game with a solid and unique premise and excellent word of mouth still sits on the shelf when put next to a better-looking product with good editing, and better distribution puts it front of more eyes.

So how does a man of extremely limited means secure these things for his game? I flatter myself to think that I have the premise, but what about the rest?

[Albert of Feh]

Well, there certainly is a lot of advice out here.  Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

Not quite. What you seem to be asking is, "How do I play the mainstream publishing game without fronting much cash?" The answer you're getting back is, "Cash or no cash, don't play the mainstream publishing game." It's really the only answer you're probably going to get around here.

The publishing strategy generally espoused here largely ignores game stores and mainstream distribution channels in favor of online pdf sales and direct book orders. Ron's essayThe Nuked Apple Cart outlines the basics in pretty stark terms.

For more detail on what you need to put into this strategy, and what you get out of it, someone else will have to step up to bat. I haven't yet gone through the whole process, but there are many here who have.

[greyorm]

Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

Heya Lee,

With all due respect, man, no one in this forum has said anything remotely similar to "stay at home and hide." Consider that you are viewing the advice in that manner because you are still looking at this from a 90's publishing perspective: "What do you mean, investors and patrons are bad? How else would you publish! Oh, you must mean I shouldn't publish at all because I can't retain control and have investors."

Now, I don't know if that is what you're thinking, but I suspect it. So, let me try to restate all the advice thus far: what people may not be doing a very good job of explaining clearly is that their point is you can publish an amazing game with good market penetration and long-term sales stability with no investors and a shoestring budget. What?! Impossible! Blasphemous! Ridiculous! You can't do that!..can you?

Basically, that is what this site is all about: publishing your game and making it more than what people expect from an "indie" publisher (ie: "some photocopied, stapled-together booklets"). There are ways to do it. You just need to express interest in going that route and let us know that you're interested. That, I believe, is what people are waiting for. You to say. "Alright, HOW do I do it?"

Take a look at Ron's Sorcerer and how he built and sold that game from the bottom up (check the section under Encouragement), by himself. Take a look at Luke Crane's Burning Wheel and how he started that off (Luke will have to interject here, as I can't recall the details, but I recall it being a kitchen-table operation). I know there are plenty of other examples here, as well.

[leegarv]

Of course, the larger portion of sounds very similar to "stay at home and hide."

With all due respect, man, no one in this forum has said anything remotely similar to "stay at home and hide." Consider that you are viewing the advice in that manner because you are still looking at this from a 90's publishing perspective: "What do you mean, investors and patrons are bad? How else would you publish! Oh, you must mean I shouldn't publish at all because I can't retain control and have investors."

Whoops! I forgot to activate the smiley there, as that IS suposed to be a trifle tongue-in-cheek. I've just been told a lot of discouraging things lately and was trying to lighten the room.

That, I believe, is what people are waiting for. You to say. "Alright, HOW do I do it?"

I know a cue when I see one...

Alright, HOW do I do it?

[leegarv]

Okay, I didn't know the quote function would do that, so...


Alright, HOW do I do it?

[Paul Czege]

Lee,

I just want to compliment how you've handled this thread. You've posted at a thoughtful and human rate of speed. It has kept the conversation real in the face of some considerable passion (mine included).

Thanks for that.

Paul

[leegarv]

Thanks Paul,

I try not to let the lack of an actual person in front of me dull my consideration (its already a pretty dull tool as it is).


BTW, Thanks for the nice things you said about Control way back when.  I never got the chance to tell you how much I loved the ideas in My Life With Master. Unfortunately, my gaming group of many years wouldn't play with me, so my search for unfulfilled love goes on.

[Ron Edwards]

Hello,

"How do I do it?"

I'm on it. Let me take a bit to phrase this just the way I think it'll help the most.

Best,
Ron

[Sydney Freedberg]

I'm no publisher, but boy, do I buy games*, so, one comment:

.....what I have seen sell in stores is good-looking, well-edited games....

Stores? Forget stores. I don't even know where to buy games in my town (D.C.). None of the half-dozen games I've bought since I found the Forge last year (see below) did I buy in a store. Bought them online, every one. Almost all of them through their publisher's own websites.

Oh, and advertising? No. I bought them all because I saw people praising them on this site.

I'm probably an extreme case. But I'm a case that proves a new world of marketing opportunities is out there for you.

* Since discovering the Forge in spring 2004: Burning Wheel, Capes, Dogs in the Vineyard, My Life with Master, Nine Worlds, Prime Time Adventures, Sorcerer, Trollbabe, and probably some PDFs I've forgotten now. And if you've never heard of any of these games, ah, you've got some cool discoveries ahead of you. They're all linked off the "Independent Game Forums" on this site.

[Sydney Freedberg]

Oh! D'oh! Inspectres. I've also bought the PDF of, and played, Inspectres. If you're reinventing Tales, you've got to look at Inspectres.

I played Tales from the Floating Vagabond in perhaps the second or third RPG session I was ever in, and it was lots of fun (though, y'know, I think the GM played pretty fast and loose with your rules), so I'm rooting for you.

[Andrew Morris]

Yup, I'm with Sydney on this. I haven't been to a gaming store in several years -- there's just no need anymore. My last in-store purchase was second edition V:tM. Since I found the Forge, I've bought a whole slew of games online or at conventions and I'm looking forward to several upcoming games.

[Lance D. Allen]

Voice of dissent here: Don't rule out stores. Maybe don't count on them being your primary sales venue, but I've got a FLGS that carries a good selection of indie stuff (Sorcerer, Little Fears, TRoS, a couple others that I don't remember). The bosses for the store go to GenCon every year and make a point to try to bring home something indie. Because of this mindset, Alexander Cherry of Twisted Confessions (lxndr here on the boards) has cut a few local deals with this store (Imperial Outpost games for those who might be in the Phoenix, AZ area) to carry the No-Press Anthology, and Fastlane.

Also, stores will make up some of your advertising "budget" if you're willing to pimp your game at in-store demos, or to have other people who are willing to do it for you. With a name like TFFV, I don't think you'll probably have trouble with local stores picking you up.. From there, it's just a matter of time and word of mouth.

Another direction for indie fame.. maybe talk to Jake Norwood, the creator of The Riddle of Steel. He's no longer "indie" technically, as he no longer owns, nor puts forth the majority of the creative effort for TRoS, but he's still an active affiliate of the new owners of the game, and still does writing. He managed to get a slick looking gloss hard-cover on an indie budget, and while it's still mostly unknown, it's got a rabid fanbase in both America and Europe, as well as other parts of the world.

[jdagna]

I think stores (and distributors) represent a very real avenue for sales and promotion that shouldn't be ignored.  It doesn't mean you have to make them a priority or spend a lot of effort or money seeking them out, but I think it's absolutely a good idea to work with the opportunities you have.

It is my experience that the most valuable thing for a small-scale publisher is an enthusiastic fan - the kind of guy who likes your games enough to show them to his friends, run demos at cons and just generally carry the torch to places you can't reach.  I have five people I consider in this category.  Two of them I met personally.  One I met at GenCon one year.  One learned about us from a store that picked up a copy of Pax Draconis at GenCon, and he then went on to make sure the store's distributor bought us (so I can credit him with about $800 in sales).  The last person bought the book in a used book store so that I didn't even see a penny directly from that sale, but he's pushed the book on his friends, assisted with playtesting and may even take over writing for the game line.

I don't have the kind of ZIP code data that Ryan Johnson talks about, but these five case studies represent the same kind of phenemonon - people playing the games and spreading the word.  Most of the sales that most of these people generate are direct sales, which means I reap the higher-margin sales in the long-term if I make a few low-margin sales up front.

In my mind, business to stores and distributors fits two categories in my budget: income (from money actually received) and advertising (the "cost" of the discounts).  As advertising goes, those discounts are the most effective form I've tried, with convention appearances second.  They're certainly better than the magazine, direct-mail and online ads I've tried.