The bare bones of a new magic system

[Ace]

Here are bare bones of a new magic system for TROS.

This is a system designed as a more conventional "rpg"magic system

apologies but this is a very bare bones draft and hardly ready. I would appreciate some feedback

To possess the ability to cast spells is a B proirity just as in regular TROS

Magic forms are bought as proficiencies. To calculate ones power pool add the form proficiencies to the average of Will and MA. This is the "power pool"

The magic forms are as follows

Knowing
Illusion (or Glamour)
Fire
Earth
Water
Air
Body
Mind
Animal
Plant
Spirit
Power
Protection
Fortune
movement
more?

To cast a spell in a given form a mage allocates dice from his power pool.

 Each effect has a number of sucesses required to make the spell work.

The number of sucesses determines the power of the spell, more power requires a greater number of sucesses in the pool.

It is legal to take from more than one pool. If a mage wishes to cast Protect Body from Fire at the senechals discretion he may split the cost between the various pools

The difficulty of a given spell depends on cirumstances. If the mage is well rested, able to speak and make a modest gesture and not under stress the TN is 7+.
Modifiers to the TN include stress, being in combat, the ability to to speak, difficuty of spell and/ or gestures and time.

The spell pool recovers at the rate of 1 point per hour. A special skill "Tapping" allows more power to be drawn from Nodes, Sacrifices and so on.

A mage with tapping may also quick charge if there is a power source available. This is dangerous and will inflict a general wound equal to the number of dice in a day drawn minus toughness.

 Stopping before the pool is full requires a WP roll difficulty 7

Once the number of dice is drawn roll a dif 7 EN check, Each success reduces the damage by 1

The Ritual magic skill allows bonus dice to the power pool to be added to a spell casting as well.

When a spell is cast the number of dice allocated is rolled, sucessfull dice do not drain the pool. Failures are spent and rolls of 10 cost double. Rolls of 1 count as two sucesses but  not for refresh

No sucesess and a 10 is bad very bad....

Example Joe the Mage cast a 10 die spell getting 5, 6, 3, 5, 8,, 9, 4, 1,  The base difficulty was 8 so its 4 sucesses (with an 8, 9 and double from the 1)

Total cost of the spell was 7

Combat spells ... A favorite mage trick is hurling energy at a target. This is treated as a missle weapon doing base damage equal to 3+ casting sucessess.

Combat spells can be learned as weapons. They use the missle pool plus Bolt throwing proficienses

They can be blocked with a shield but not parried

Mental spells are resisted by WP. Difficulty is 7.

Note that SA's can be used in spell casting. They are treated as pool dice that neither diminish nor refresh.

A minimum of 1 pool must be spent per spell.

[Psychopompous]

I'm not sure why for the most part... It might have something to do with your distgusting list of "forms"(a total of 16), many of which overlap in many places, or are specializations of others. I like TRoS's vagaries better the way they are.

Quick-charging the spell pool is an interesting idea, and I like giving extra pool dice for a higher level of mastery over that vagary (at least for spells of one).

-Psychopompous

[Ace]

I'm not sure why for the most part... It might have something to do with your distgusting list of "forms"(a total of 16), many of which overlap in many places, or are specializations of others. I like TRoS's vagaries better the way they are.

Quick-charging the spell pool is an interesting idea, and I like giving extra pool dice for a higher level of mastery over that vagary (at least for spells of one).

-Psychopompous

I have reservations about the "Vagary" magic system and as a varient wanted to come up with a more "traditional" RPG magic system.

The vagaries work fine, the aging rule is flavorfull but TROS magic really is strange to me

As an example, it is effectivly as easy to destroy the entire planet as to heal a  wound.

Heal wound is CTN10 while a doomsday spell is only only CTN11(see my spell Obliterate here on the forum)

This bothers me. Also somefolks may want "magic as a tool" rather than a the  magic system in TROS

ONe thing I forgot to do was stats in my varient that the "forms" should be thought of as weapon styles

Just as a club can be used with longsword or sword and shield  the same tasks can be accomplished with several different forms

If I have a fire I want to shield from I can use Fire, Protection, Movement, Water or whatever else the Senechal allows

The mixed forms shouldn't be thought of as Ars Magica "Noun/Verb" magic but as styles. If you know more than one form you can split the cost.

NOw the declining magic ability allows for a balancing factor. In the core rules the magic isn't supposed to be balanced (feature not a bug though) but in this system there are checks and balances built in.

ALos remember it is only the bare bones...

[Brian Leybourne]

As an example, it is effectivly as easy to destroy the entire planet as to heal a  wound.

Heal wound is CTN10 while a doomsday spell is only only CTN11(see my spell Obliterate here on the forum)

Makes you wonder why nobody ever has successfully destroyed the world then eh? Someone (mad with grief or just insane) must have tried once or twice throughout history. Theoretically it should have been easy, but it obviously didn't work. Hmm... maybe there's more to these religions than one might otherwise think......

... or maybe there's a sentient force behind magic itself. Maybe when you age through magic you are prolonging *its* life force which keeps it around as the "keeper" of magic...

or maybe...

(etc)

Brian.

[Ace]

I suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning  that would give warning of such an attempt.

[Brian Leybourne]

I suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning  that would give warning of such an attempt.

Mine was more fun :-)

Brian.

[Psychopompous]

I suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning  that would give warning of such an attempt.

Spells of three just don't take all that long to cast, and how is any sorcerer going to notice it until it's a little late unless there's some powerful cadre of sorcerers watching the entire world 100% of the time to keep some madman from destroying it...

-Psychopompous

[Jaif]

I can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.

-Jeff

[Brian Leybourne]

I can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.

-Jeff

Pick up a *really* big rock, and hurl it at the ground at the speed of light.

Boom.

Brian.

[Ace]

I can't find your obliterate spell, but I really have difficulty believing that a magician can destroy the world w/o knowledge of advanced theoretical physics.

-Jeff

here is the spell

http://www.indie-rpgs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2298

As for the theoretical physics... How do we know the sorcerers don't have this knowledge?

many gifted have vision 3, which will allow you the equivilant of an electron microscope.

Combine that with a basic atomic theory (theorized during the real worlds bronze age) a little curiosity and you have super scientific lore.

[Ace]

I suspect that any sorcerer who tried it would be stopped by the other sorcerers. There are a number of neat spells with vision 2-3 and maybe summoning  that would give warning of such an attempt.

Spells of three just don't take all that long to cast, and how is any sorcerer going to notice it until it's a little late unless there's some powerful cadre of sorcerers watching the entire world 100% of the time to keep some madman from destroying it...

-Psychopompous

I figure most sorcerers use spells like Prophesy (CTN6) or an improved version of it with a vision vagary of 3. This has a CTN of 7 or 8 if not formalized and will give a decent vision of any major events in the Lifetime of the caster.

I figure that if some madman was to cast such a spell it would show up like a beacon.


Most likely the RPG session would go something like this

Player  as Loo-Ni (a grief stricken Sorcerer) "Enough of this suffering, I will inflict a terrible price" to the GM "I begin to cast Obliteration"

GM "As you start to cast the spell there is a terrible wrenching as you spell is stopped"

Player "How?"

GM "20 years ago when you started on this path you sent ripples into the time stream. Every mage with destiny and every mage who ever attempted a Prophesy or a stronger spell is aware of what you will do"

Player "But that makes no sense, My character didn't know he was going to do that"

GM-- Grinning "Hey its magic" You are instantly squished by a boulder moving at the speed of sound. Make a new character

Player --- "Screw you I am playing D&D next time"

:)

[Jaif]

Pick up a *really* big rock, and hurl it at the ground at the speed of light.

No, the rock would catch fire and burn due to atmospheric friction.  Of course, you're assuming that a sorcerer knows and understands the difference between really, really fast speeds, like the speed of sound, and theoretical limits, such as the speed of light.  I've suggested before that it's a bad idea to allow sorcerers such knowledge - it doesn't make sense in a simulationist sense, it makes them too powerful in a gamist sense, and too much of it can ruin drama in a narrativist sense.

As for the theoretical physics... How do we know the sorcerers don't have this knowledge?

many gifted have vision 3, which will allow you the equivilant of an electron microscope.

Combine that with a basic atomic theory (theorized during the real worlds bronze age) a little curiosity and you have super scientific lore.

LOL!  

How do I know they don't have this knowledge?

1) I'm the GM, problem solved.
2) Just because the word "atom" was coined in the bronze age doesn't mean they're atomic theory was correct.  It wasn't.
3) Modern physics is the result of thousands of people's lifetime efforts, including the work of a few hundred geniouses & near-geniouses.  Furthermore, any understanding of complex physics requires an understanding of complex math.  The bottom line is there's no way even a genious level sorcerer could work it all out himself.  "Start with counting and x-ray vision: work out non-euclidean geometry, partial differential equations, and then use these tools to create a reasonable explanation of the world around you."  Yeah, right.

Don't put yourself into a bind - assume that a sorcerer's knowledge safely encompasses basic mechanics and simple thermodynamics (things like hot air rising), and leaving it at that.

-Jeff

P.S. I can't stress this enough:

Archimedes
Keppler
Newton
Euler
Gauss
Einstein

I'm only scratching the surface here.  These are people who are far smarter than your characters, who dedicated their lives to the search of scientific answers.  You're allowing sorcerers to gain not only their knowledge, but the knowledge of hundreds of others like them.  Worse yet, your character's backgrounds have nothing in them like "...spent all his youth and adult life pursuing science in the company of monks atop Mt. Safety.  At the tender age of 60, he journies forth to...", yet you're willing to give them such knowledge?

P.P.S. When Einstein was working on General Relativity, he asked a math professor to tutor him in differential geometry.  This stuff is that complicated.

P.P.P.S. You know, some of you need to actually make some sorcerers.  You're assuming 3's in tons of vagaries; it's not that easy.  Consider:

A: 14 vagaries
B: Gifted
C: 39 attributes
D: No gifts/flaws
E: Peasant
F: 9 skill

How does our peasant with barely any skill know physics?  Also note that he only has 4 vagaries, at most, to level 3.

[Ron Edwards]

Jeff,

Great post, good call, which badly needed to be made.

Nothing else to say.

Best,
Ron

[Lance D. Allen]

I think the most important mechanism for avoiding such situations falls under this line:

How do I know they don't have this knowledge?

1) I'm the GM, problem solved.

If you, as Seneschal, deem it possible that they know alla this, then you are giving explicit permission for them to use Sorcery to rape the world and physics, thus allowing immortality despite the price of Sorcery, the ability to destroy the world in less than 2 minutes, and a whole slew of other nastiness. If this is the sort of world you want to play in, GREAT! Have a ball. I don't want to play in that sort of world, though. No Tom Clancy-esque nuclear espionage, etc. for me, thank you.

However, that's no reason to totally knock it here on the boards. Just remember that what you will allow, others may not, and that what you disallow, others might like.

It's your world, people. Have fun.

[Ace]

[P.P.P.S. You know, some of you need to actually make some sorcerers.  You're assuming 3's in tons of vagaries; it's not that easy.  Consider:

A: 14 vagaries
B: Gifted
C: 39 attributes
D: No gifts/flaws
E: Peasant
F: 9 skill

How does our peasant with barely any skill know physics?  Also note that he only has 4 vagaries, at most, to level 3.

Thats a starting Sorcerer with no Insight points.

A peasant wouldn't unless Theoretic applications are part and parcel of Sorcery training, GM's call.

Vagaries?

Vision3, Growth2 (for quick kill spells), Movement3, Summon2, conquer1, Glamor2-- Thats should do the job. Its certainly enough for Obliterate or some equivilant spell

In a session or four, I will raise Summon, Conquer and a few of the others....


However I wouldn't play a Sorcerer without having Insight. First of, using Sorcerery properly requires a good understanding of the rules

 Second, I don't want  to play that sort of hedge witch?

I was thinking of a sophisticated Helenic Sorcerer would be more fun to play myself