Indie Effects on Existing Industry

[Matt Gwinn]

So, Matt, was that you I saw talking to that coven of new-age witches the other day, saying, "Hey, I just talked to a fundamentalist who said that witches should be burned. What do you think?"

LOL  I figured there would be some harsh words spoeken which is why I didn't use any names.  But I was honestly interested in a discusion on the matter from people not working for the bigger companies.

I do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space.  The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf?  Is there such a thing as too many games?  Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?

In regards to the general problems with the distribution system, is there any way to fix things without putting someone out of work?

,Matt G.

[Mike Holmes]

OK, that's more reasonable. I think that we can probably continue discussing this usefully as long as people try to present the Devil's Advocate positions. I think the first few posts hit the Con side of the argument pretty well, already.

That said, I got nothin'.

Mike

[Matt Snyder]

I do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space.  The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf?  Is there such a thing as too many games?  Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?

I, too, agree. The problem, as I see it, is that the "crap" is not limited to those pesky shelf-squatters, whoever the hell they are. The crap is there in DROVES from the core companies -- you know, the people putting bread on their table via gaming production/publication. Sure, there's some nice product. The might even be simply some nice _looking_ product. But there's far more crap out there. Shit sandwiched between a hard cover, glossy cover is still a shit sandwich.

In other words, I'd bet dimes to dollars that I view this whining guy's product as crap, or to put it more politely, something I wouldn't buy.

The issue, as I see it, is that practically no one operates in a manner that the rest of the world would consider professional. I can't really blame anybody. But then, I never viewed this as anything but -- how did Ralph put it? -- analagous to buying a plasma screen tv. Yeah, buying a TV w/ no warranty. That's a fair enough analogy for my beloved hobby.

So it goes.

[Le Joueur]

Sorry to be overly simplistic my fellows, but aren't the complaints at the top of this thread simply another example of the evolution of the print publishing industry?  I've heard pretty much the same stuff coming out of the big publishing houses as print-on-demand prices get closer and closer to volume discount prices.  And you know what happens every time the business paradigm shifts....

People whine that

it shouldn't be that way.[/list:u]Too bad, either evolve or go extinct.  It ain't the indie publishers 'ruining the market,' it's the technology.  Perhaps 'the nameless game company' should rethink doing business 'the old-fashioned way.'  Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.

What's that?

I think I hear the "three tier system" cracking.[/list:u][/list:u]I wonder what's on the other side?

Fang Langford

[greyorm]

Well, perhaps a surprise to anyone that knows my political-social leanings, but "What Ron said."

I mean, I'd love to get all the local tech work being done by those who aren't accredited and certified as industry professionals...oh, wait, maybe I'll have the government put regulations in place so that no one can work in this field but me and who I say.

(Oh, wait, didn't Socialist Russia try that?)

See, in a free trade system, ultimately nobody cares about your kids or your hunger but you, except as a part of their moral social consciousness that says, "We should feed the hungry and help the poor."
The system, however, doesn't give a shit.

Welcome to business in a capitalist society.
If you can't survive in the career you're in, you need to change careers...quite the reverse of the desired scenario: Matt's friend leaves the business and thus makes more space for those willing to persevere losses or lack of income. Same result, though.

[greyorm]

The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf?  Is there such a thing as too many games?  Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?

In order: Yes. Maybe. Yes.
There is a limited amount of money to be used each month with which to purchase games; hence if a retailer buys a large load of crap, they will forego purchasing something else. If the crap doesn't sell, they have even less money to be used on the following order to purchase other product with.

Too many games. I say "maybe" because it depends on who you're asking and a variety of factors that don't really relate to business. Socially and culturally, the answer to the question is "No." It's like asking, "Is there too much variety in the ways we can prepare our food?"

Signal-to-noise: any product group has this. You're essentially asking if there is "good" product and "bad" product, to which one can only say, "Of course." But what's good and what's bad is, generally, another matter of taste.

In regards to the general problems with the distribution system, is there any way to fix things without putting someone out of work?

No. Its a simple fact of the way business works. The Company buys X amount of product, spending Y amount of dollars from a limited resource (M). They now have Y dollars less resource (M) to buy products Z, A and B.

The distribution chain could be better informed and more knowledgeable about the product they put on the shelves and the way they order and run their business (hearkening back to the discussion of that successful comics shop -- Page 54 (?) -- we had here some time ago), but the problem is thus:

No matter whose products you don't buy, you're putting someone out of work.

That's all there is to it.

[Pramas]

Perhaps 'the nameless game company' should rethink doing business 'the old-fashioned way.'  Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.

I like a good revolution as much as the next punk, but you might want to learn more about the game industry before you warm yourself by its death pyre. Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers. Smart companies build up a good working relationship with a pool of freelance talent, so they have "go-to" guys and gals that are good at what they do and timely in their execution.

Green Ronin will probably publish 30 titles this year. I will design one and half to two of these myself (and do development on all the non-M&M titles, but that's different). The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design. This is not at all unusual.

[wyrdlyng]

Welcome to business in a capitalist society.

As I learned in my Economics class, you bring your product to the market where the consumer decides to either buy your product or that of your competitors. It's the second chapter of the text. If you don't even have that basic piece of Economics info down I question your ability to effectively compete in any business venture.

Competition = bad is a weak excuse for poor business sense.

[Michael Hopcroft]

1. There is no such thing as too many games. Not on store shelves, not on my shelves, not on the Internet. There's a reason I have a 160GB hard drive. There's a reason I try to make contact with every publisher I can find out there in the field even though I am supposedly the cutthroat competition. Every time I walk into a game store I want to see something new, whether from an indie publisher or from an established veteran company.

2. I, like many game publishers, am concieted enough to think that I am an artist and that my art deserves an audience, however small. That sometimes clouds my business judgement, but is also why I don't spend sixty hours a week selling refrigerators. I don;t want to hear it when people tell me I don't belong in this business, which is essentially what I've been told on many an occasion for the last three years. It knaws at my guts. It aches in my bones. it hurts to be told things like that. I have experienced things in the game business, good or bad, that I could not have experienced any other way, and my life has been far richer for it. Nobody has the right to take that away from me.

3. Undercapitalization is frustrating, but not getting stuff to press is even more so. If borrowing against my accounts recievable means I get to go to the GAMA Trade Show, so be it. At least I know the money is scheduled to come eventually.

4. If POD and PDF publishing is so wonderful, why aren;t more people buying PODs and PDFs? We need to make a concerted effort to grow this market, people, for everybody's sake, to make the entire business more viable. Cutting each other down doesn't cut it anymore -- if we don;t build each other up, none of us are going to survive.

[talysman]

I hate to march out of step, here, but I just can't join in on the "bash the established game companies" fun, because (as I said) I think the fundamental premise of the nameless game insider is flawed. I don't think the big game companies are really being choked out by an upsurge in small game companies.

strange... is the indie industry really "clogging the channels"?

What people are really talking about is d20 companies. An enormous number of new companies have entered the field in a very short amount of time, each trying to ride the d20 wave. In the early days of d20, it didn't matter how shitty your product was, you could still probably sell 3,000 of it into the channel. This enabled a bunch of companies to establish themselves quickly, and the imitators continue to come out of the woodwork.

... but again, I allowed for that in my original example. I'm just not seeing a huge quantity of small-press d20 in the stores. when I go to my favorite, best-stocked gamestore, I see:

[*]a whole lot of WotC d20 stuff;
[*]a whole lot of d20 stuff from other major, pre-d20 companies (White Wolf, Chaosium;)
[*]a lot of d20 stuff by a small number of companies whose history I'm not clear on, but I suspect had pre-d20 existence, based on the breadth and (physical) quality of their product lines;
[*]hardly any d20 stuff from new companies with small product lines.
[/list:u]

heck, when you go to secondary channels like comic book stores and Barnes and Noble. you see no small press stuff at all, d20 or non-d20. you see WotC and White Wolf and maybe Chaosium or some other major RPG publisher.

when you look online, it's different. there are swarms of tiny d20 companies. most of these only sell online. true, when you go to RPGNet (my primary source for game reviews,) the sheer quantity of small-press d20 products seems to swamp out the products from the large companies. in this sense, you could say the phenomenal small-press growth has "clogged the channels" -- but online sales and RPGNet reviews were never major channels for pre-d20 WotC, White Wolf, or other companies. certainly, I've never heard of a gamestore ordering something just because it was mentioned on RPGNet.

plus, the small press d20 companies are probably not getting much in the way of sales. most of those reviews for upstart products on RPGNet complain about poor quality and little depth. most of the companies seem to produce one or two products, then give up. people just aren't buying game products unless there's a lot of buzz: I heard tons of positive stuff about the Riddle of Steel, Sorcerer, Donjon, Godlike, Little Fears, and the Eden games, as well as the Scarred Lands products, but only one ore two negative reviews about the bulk of the small press d20 products before the products were forgotten forever. the people who talk about buying games talk about buying the postive stuff, not the negative stuff.

I'm completely doubting the game insider's complaint.

my guess is that his complaint has not much to do with economics, really, and more to do with ego. if he says "I'm a game writer/publisher," he doesn't feel special anymore, because almost anyone can be a game publisher these days. it makes him feel cheap. I doubt his job was threatened (until he posted his comments in a public forum, that is.)

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I do agree with the guy on one point; there is a lot of crap out there that is simply wasting space.  The question is, is the existence of that crap keeping my game or someone elses off the shelf?  Is there such a thing as too many games?  Does the gaming industry have a signal to noise ratio?

Well, my other hobby is video games, classic video games. There was something that is referred to as the big crash of '84 where sales were actually up from the previous year, but there was such a glut of product on the market, everyone wound up with a much smaller piece from the larger pie. The result, Coleco and Mattel closed their electronics division with Coleco eventually giving up the ghost, Atari changed hands a few times until the were recently purchased by Infogrames, and most of the smaller companies closed up shop with Activision being one of the few exceptions.

This sounds pretty grim but it ignores one very important fact: RPGs are not video games. Expecting the RPG market to behave in any way like the video game market of the early 80's is foolhardy. The crash of '84 was what happens when a mainstream fad suddenly hits the wall. RPGs are not a mainstream fad. Never was. If anything in RPGs is even remotely close to the video game crash, it might be d20/OGL. It took a few years for video games to crash. But that may have happened already. I don't know.

Anyway, this really doesn't effect most people. My LGS has its d20 section and it has its non-d20 section. Shelf space for all.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

... Why don't they slash their overhead and work outsourced with a boatload of freelancers; if they focus on finding reliable talent and use their expertise in marketing and presentation, they can make their skills payoff more than the volume discount used to.

... Most RPG companies already outsource writing and art to freelancers.

...The rest will be done by freelancers, as will all the art, all the editing, and some of the graphic design...

How about freelancers in marketing and presentation, which seems to be what Fang is talking about. People who sell the books rather than the people who put the books together in first place.

[clehrich]

Hi.

Now that we're done (I hope) bashing non-Indie companies, let's consider other options.  My theory is that the "Big Game Company Guy" knows what he's talking about, in a limited sense.  Here's what he knows: his company's games aren't selling.  Here's what else he knows: rumor is that the Indies are why.  He didn't manufacture this; it's an old, old claim (these little fringe deviants are taking jobs away from Our Boys).  And all this stuff about free trade and capitalism is missing the point.  With a market this small, there ain't no level playing field, and there's not going to be.

Think of it this way: the big companies aren't making as much money now, and blame the Indies, to which the response here is essentially, "Tough.  If you made as good products as we do, you'd get your market."  Okay, so have all of you noticed that you're now getting all that money instead?  C'mon, speak up, those of you that have made a net profit in the, say, $10,000 range last year or so.  Okay, so it's just not a simple closed-market system problem.

Here's a worry for you: Suppose the big companies die (they won't, really, but this is as much an extreme case as is the closed-market theory above).  Who's going to buy games?  Who's got the advertising power to convince new buyers to buy things?  The hobby will contract, there will be fewer buyers, so less money will come in.  There is not a fixed sum of money being spent on games reliably; that sum will fluctuate, based on lots of factors (I'm sure the economy tanking doesn't help encourage people to spend money on new d20 supplements, for example).  This is the same kind of theory that caused a number of acquaintances of mine to invest heavily in Magic Cards a few years back, since "They're worth X, and that will increase."  Sure, a few people actually made money that way, but a lot of them now have shoeboxes full of worthless cards, because the field contracted.

Okay, so let me suggest that there's an alternative approach here.  I don't have hard data here; it's just a theory.

1. Start with the Big RPG Company (from here on in BRC).  It works like an ordinary publisher, albeit with a crappy distribution model and a lot of unprofessional stuff going on (like no accounts receivable and whatnot).  So when books don't sell at all, they get sent back from the retailer, and the BRC has to figure out why or they're really screwed.

2. Here's the retailer.  I'm talking about the hobbyist retailer, not Barnes and Noble, which doesn't devote space to anything not from a BRC, usually.  Anyway, he's got a lot of problems to deal with, and a lot of factors:

A. There's only so much shelf space.  He needs to maximize profit-margin for said space.

B. The books often come out in August, which is a really slow sales period.  Why?  Because the industry is stupid (why not Christmas?).  So the big deal for getting new customers is students, who show up in town around September, perhaps with money to burn in their pockets.  So we want stuff that will appeal to 18 year-olds.

C. There are thousands of new products every year.  Yes, thousands.  So how the hell am I supposed to know which ones are going to sell?  Few products stay on the shelves long enough before getting pushed out by new stuff to gain a track record.  Also, if they're new, there's not going to be a lot of "buzz," because there's nothing to buzz about.  So I prioritize:

(1) Is this thing similar to something that has sold well recently?
(2) Does this thing come from somebody that has done reliable business recently?
(3) Does this thing look like the sort of slick, pretty stuff 18 year-olds seem to want?
(4) Does it hit the sort of currently-fashionable version of personal angst that I hear my customers yapping about?
(5) Is it expensive enough that my markup will make it worthwhile?
(6) It is particularly physically large (bad) or small (good) and so somewhat alters the ratio of space to profit?
(7) If it doesn't sell, what are the chances I can get rid of it for a token loss instead of a total loss (i.e. does it come from a BRC)?

D. My business will not make me rich.  I know that.  I'm in this business (listen up guys: this should sound familiar) because I want to be involved in this hobby I love full-time, make enough to live on, and get to know lots of other people like me.  When a customer comes in and wants to talk about the new cool game he's heard about, I would like (it's not always possible, but this is my dream) to be able to chat about it with him, not only because I want to make money selling that game, but because I want to read it and play it.  I don't want to have to carry fringe gaming products I hate, but I will if they make me enough profit to keep in business.  I want to be a mainstay and center of the hobby community I love.

3. Okay, so now the BRC says to the retailer: "You sent our books back again.  Why?"
Retailer: "Because nobody bought them, or at least, not fast enough that I can afford to keep them on my shelves when there's lots of new stuff coming out."
BRC: "Why are your shelves so crowded?"
Ret: "Because there are a hundred million little companies cranking stuff out, and you know, I have to take a chance once in a while.  Besides, my customers want to see new stuff all the time.  I really really rely on my return business, and if those guys see the same products, they leave my shop."
BRC: "But where is all this new stuff coming from?"
Ret: "Well, some of it from you, obviously, but there's all these other people out there.  I can't keep up.  I don't know what's hot, because 'hot' lasts about 10 seconds.  And then the worst thing is that my customers decide that they can find out what's 'hot' by checking the Internet, and there are all these games that think they're so great because they have no middleman, just PDF crap, you know?  But I can't make a dime on that!  Why would they do this to me?  Don't they remember the good old days [see Ron's Myth article] of Weird Harry's Game Emporium?  Why are they so unwilling to allow me a tiny profit margin?  Why do they hate me so? <sob>"
BRC: "There, there.  Those goddamn Indies.  Don't worry, we'll fix 'em."

That, in essence, is my theory of why this BRC guy thinks the Indies are at fault.  I really don't think it's because we're outselling them, nor because the BRCs are just whiners.

[Jack Spencer Jr]

I'm sorry, clehrich, but that still amounts to only so much whining <sob>

Maybe I have a better view of these people. The market is shifting, away from game stores and towards the internet and downloading free PDFs. (at least that's what you'd said above)

Now, they could complain about how this is taking business away from their sales, or they could do something about it. Everyone complains about the weather but no one does anything about it. If the market is indeed changing then they need to shift business tactics or they will flounder and eventually close up shop. If the market really isn't shifting but this ia a fad of sorts, then they need to stock their rescources to wait it out. This goes for the game retailer as well as the publisher.

And you lost me (and some other I would guess) with this:

I'm in this business (listen up guys: this should sound familiar) because I want to be involved in this hobby I love full-time, make enough to live on, and get to know lots of other people like me.

Emphasis mine. I point to Ron's post on page on of this thread. You (indefinate hypethetical you, not you personally) are not guarenteed to make enough to live on. Many here have day jobs. That's because this is their hobby, not their job.

My brother has a hobby buying and selling musical equipment on the side. His job is a teacher (yes. scary isn't it?) He might make a profit selling and trading Amps, guitars and such or he might take a loss. In either case it doesn't matter so long has he never loses more than he can afford to lose (and he calls me with a request to borrow a few hundred buck) He has fun doing it, which is why he does it. And if he makes a little extra to take his wife out for a nice dinner, then that's great. If it doesn't happen, it doesn't happen.

Ron had said at one point that the PDF Sorcerer never made him much more than to cover bus fare (he hasn't released any info on how the hard copy version is doing) But that's fine. It is his hobby. It's great that he earned enough to cover bus fare.

These guys are trying to eek out a living in this market. At this point, I'm sick of bashing them as well so I'm going to say "Good luck" and "You'll need it" and be done with it.

[jrs]

I'm finding this discussion interesting.  As a librarian, I interact with publishers on a regular basis.  And just last week, I had a meeting with one supplier account rep who was trying to understand why our total purchases were down this past year.  (Answer: we can get some titles cheaper & faster from another source, and we've been selecting titles not covered by said supplier.)

The rpg industry is not alone in being affected by the increasing number of players in the publishing field.  

Julie

p.s.  Reading the arguments about the indie competition preventing the livelihood of other, more deserving individuals reminds me of similar arguments made as to why women shouldn't be allowed to enter the workforce.