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Author Topic: Adapting TRoS Combat to Burning Wheel  (Read 14071 times)
Claymore
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« on: June 20, 2003, 10:22:02 PM »

I realize that my words may (and probably will) be considered blasphemy, but has anyone considered adapting Riddle of Steel's combat mechanics to Burning Wheel. I happen to like most of what BW has to offer, but I'm not too crazy about the way it handles Scripting and armor. On the other hand, while I love TRoS combat mechanics, I'm not as fond of its magic or skill rules. I don't think it would be terribly hard to convert as both are dice pool systems. I think Spiritual attributes might work well with Luke's Artha rules as well.

Well, just wanted to chime in with my thoughts. Let the flaming begin :-)


-Claymore
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Valamir
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« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2003, 06:37:29 AM »

Yup, I've suggested the possibility several times.  It would be pretty easy actually, the systesms are quite compatable in that regard.  The most difficult part would be deciding how to meld BW maneuvers with TROS maneuvers rather than just scrapping BW moves all together.

Before I tackle it though I want to play with the current scripting system to see how BW combat currently feels.  I may decide that such a conversion is entirely unnecessary.
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Claymore
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« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2003, 10:38:27 AM »

Quote from: Valamir
Yup, I've suggested the possibility several times.  It would be pretty easy actually, the systesms are quite compatable in that regard.  The most difficult part would be deciding how to meld BW maneuvers with TROS maneuvers rather than just scrapping BW moves all together.


Both systems are similar enough that a conversion could be made with relative ease IMHO as well. To get the higher pool totals I was considering adding reflexes to the skill exponent to get your combat pool (in magic you already add your character's Will score to your Sorcery skill). Using Fortitude as Toughness (which caps nicely at 6 :-) also works. You can fork in another couple more dice with other combat releated skills. The key thing to consider is do you use d10's or d6's? I prefer the d6, but TRoS manuevers vary the TN and with a d6 the possibilites are more limited.  

Quote

Before I tackle it though I want to play with the current scripting system to see how BW combat currently feels.  I may decide that such a conversion is entirely unnecessary.


I've scripted a couple of times, including once with the designer. Its just not my groups thing.

Claymore
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Luke
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« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2003, 04:35:40 PM »

i can't help you with this one; i don't know the ROS system at all.

I don't understand why you would want to take BW into ROS? There's nothing left after you convert BW into another system.  BW is just a system. Going in the opposite direction ROS to BW is quite possible, though.

-L
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Luke
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« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2003, 05:02:49 PM »

i'm sorry, i'm very tired... i didn't see the first post in this thread!

oops! Well, I think a merger of the two could be done, taking out scripting and dropping in those lovely charts and stuff. But like I said, I don't know ROS at all.  (I've read the Quick Start.)

One thing that BW would have to assert is FLAT target numbers. Obstacle can rise and fall as it will (and using bigger pools allows for higher obstacles), but DN/TN should always stay the same.

Suggestions? Donations?

I imagine Mr Norwood is going to be at Gencon, I could ask him about it. But he probably doesn't know anything about BW!

-L
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Valamir
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« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2003, 05:05:08 PM »

Its just the combat system being discussed Luke.  BW is a d6 die pool system, TROS is a d10 die pool system.  That makes them pretty compatable.  After you derive your die pool for combat you'd just use TROS concepts for combat instead of the scripting.  It would work pretty slick actually.

But like I said, I have to see the scripting in action before I bother thinking about replacing it.
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Claymore
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« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2003, 06:55:00 PM »

Quote from: abzu

i can't help you with this one; i don't know the ROS system at all.

I don't understand why you would want to take BW into ROS? There's nothing left after you convert BW into another system.  BW is just a system. Going in the opposite direction ROS to BW is quite possible, though.


Now, now, Luke, remember what I told you about letting people adapt games to their needs :-)

Quote from: abzu

 i'm sorry, i'm very tired... i didn't see the first post in this thread!

oops! Well, I think a merger of the two could be done, taking out scripting and dropping in those lovely charts and stuff. But like I said, I don't know ROS at all. (I've read the Quick Start.)

One thing that BW would have to assert is FLAT target numbers. Obstacle can rise and fall as it will (and using bigger pools allows for higher obstacles), but DN/TN should always stay the same.

Suggestions? Donations?

I imagine Mr Norwood is going to be at Gencon, I could ask him about it. But he probably doesn't know anything about BW!


No worries..... ;-)

I'm glad you chimed in Luke, I have a quick question about forks. I know it is suggested to fork in related combat skills, but I remember seeing somewhere in the main rules that there is a limit of forking in 1 skill if the total level under 6 (sorry I know I'm not using the proper BW terms :-), where if your level is 7+ you can fork in a max of 2 skills. Is this correct?

My initial thoughts as I posted earlier is to add reflexes to the skill level (err.. exponent) and to fork in a couple of combat related skills to form a players dice pool. Fortitude would replace Toughness in determining the severity of the wound, which works quite well, in TROS the stat goes to 10 which can make character invulnerable. (They actually suggest capping Toughness at 6 on the TOS forums). Since you already use a similar mechanic for Sorcery (adding Will to Sorcery to allow for the higher obstacles), I don't think it violates BW core mechanics terribly badly.


By the way, I also made a similar post to the Riddle of steel board and a few have stirred up a bit of interest in the game, we might be getting a few new visitors soon. As for Mr. Norwood not knowing anything about BW, you might be surprised :-) he left this over at TROS forum:

Quote from: Jake Norwood


 Claymore-

I actually began reading the Burning Wheel today, before seeing this thread. It's a very solid system thus far, and I'm impressed with how thorough it is. I haven't but looked at the combat system, but hybriding TROS combat into the core BW mechanic looks pretty functional.

Jake


All comments are appreciated


Claymore
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Valamir
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« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2003, 07:46:30 PM »

Actually Luke, the charts are probably the least important thing and the least interesting thing to convert.  The only thing charts are used for is hit location and damage.  I'm thinking that they can be ignored entirely in favor of the current BW damage system.

The fun part about TROS is dividing up your combat die pool to power your maneuvers.  The big question would be to scrap BW maneuvers in favor of TROS maneuvers, or to redefine BW maneuvers in terms that use the TROS mechanics.

The flat TNs are an issue that would have to be accounted for.  In TROS the combat TNs come from the weapon type seperate attack and defense TNs based on the characteristics of the weapon.  To keep with the flat TNs of BW (and rightly so) that would have to change, presumeably to something closer to the way BW handles weapons.

At any rate, it will make much more sense once you've played TROS at GenCon.  And again, this is just sheer speculation.  I'm equally looking forward to you running me through some BW scripting combats.
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Claymore
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« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2003, 08:56:59 PM »

Quote from: Valamir
Actually Luke, the charts are probably the least important thing and the least interesting thing to convert.  The only thing charts are used for is hit location and damage.  I'm thinking that they can be ignored entirely in favor of the current BW damage system.

The fun part about TROS is dividing up your combat die pool to power your maneuvers.  The big question would be to scrap BW maneuvers in favor of TROS maneuvers, or to redefine BW maneuvers in terms that use the TROS mechanics.

The flat TNs are an issue that would have to be accounted for.  In TROS the combat TNs come from the weapon type seperate attack and defense TNs based on the characteristics of the weapon.  To keep with the flat TNs of BW (and rightly so) that would have to change, presumeably to something closer to the way BW handles weapons.

At any rate, it will make much more sense once you've played TROS at GenCon.  And again, this is just sheer speculation.  I'm equally looking forward to you running me through some BW scripting combats.


If a flat TN is kept certain things like using a shield/evading could be represented with the defender get additional dice to be used only on defense, and just have a 4+ for each weapon shouldn't be a problem at all. My concern about sticking to the d6 are for manuevers such as evasive attack, they could be adjusted by raising the obstacle, I'm just not sure, maybe I can get Jake's feel for it after he's had more of a chance to review BW.

BTW, good luck to you guys at Gen Con this year. I and my business partner (for the game store we both own) went last year and had a great time talking to the indie game developers (although I don't remember meeting you Ralph :-). Sadly he is overseas right now, he's Army reserve called up for operation Iraqi Freedom, and I can't close the store for 5 days to go out (I don't have the help I did last year). I'm somewhat bummed about it, I had a great time last year. Gen Con is the best place for an Indie Designer to promote his game to the Consumer (where GAMMA is the best place to show it to the Store/Distributor). May you all be blessed with many sales and new converts!


Claymore
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Luke
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« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2003, 07:17:28 AM »

Quote
My initial thoughts as I posted earlier is to add reflexes to the skill level (err.. exponent) and to fork in a couple of combat related skills to form a players dice pool.


A player may FoRK in one die from each related skill that he possesses under exponent 6. If he has a skill at 7 or higher, he may FoRK two dice into his applicable tests. You may FoRK as many skills as you think applicable. There's been a little discussion about that on this forum and I endorse nebulous menace and inthisstyle's answers completely.

You could add Ref to Skill to get combat pools.
You could also vary the die pool. So that for certain maneuvers you use Ref+Skill and for others you use Power+Skill (Great Strike for example), or for others you use Speed+Skill (Avoid, for example) and so on. It's a little less simple, but it might be more representative. But I wouldn't know! I ain't played!

Quote
Since you already use a similar mechanic for Sorcery (adding Will to Sorcery to allow for the higher obstacles), I don't think it violates BW core mechanics terribly badly.

You know, claymore, even since you told me about (and I read the quickstart rules for) ROS i've wanted to do a joint version: Burning Steel! I think are games are very close sisters. We have similar thoughts and mechanics about a whole lot of stuff, though we do differ strongly on a few points.

Anyway, I am telling you: Obstacle obstacle obstacle. Using varying Obs for maneuvers/rolls using 10+ dice will work just fine. Even if they are as just Ob 1, 2 or 3.  Having played A LOT with the various sorcery rules, i've seen that one can really raise obstacles for different desired effects.

How does damage work in ROS?

Also, I know you said you prefer the d6 (as do I), but you know BW can be played with the d10. The system is binary, each die is either on or off, so d10s work, too.  I don't know if this helps with translating ROS, though.

-L
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Valamir
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« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2003, 07:55:58 AM »

Quote
How does damage work in ROS?


Well, to answer that requires a bit of a lead in.

First the die pool (or combat pool) is not simply rolled.  It is literally a pool of dice from which you draw as many dice as you wish to roll for a particular maneuver from.  The pool refreshes every other exchange so essentially you have to decide how many dice to spend for the first and how many to keep in reserve for the second.

Then you have 4 different types of damage:

Shock:  Shock causes a 1 time loss of dice from your current pool.  So if you saved 5 dice for the second exchange but took 4 Shock in the first exchange then your second exchange is down to 1 die.  If you have more shock than dice, the shock carries over to the next exchange where you use the greater of Pain vs carried over shock.

Pain:  Pain is like shock only it carries over.  Your die pool is permanently reduced by the amount of pain for the remainder of the combat.

Blood Loss:  Blood loss accumulates and requires the equivelent of saving throws to avoid losing Health (an attribute not hit points).  At Health 0 you've bled to death.  Health is related to how fast you heal, so bleeding your health down makes for a long recovery time.  Blood Loss is not often a factor (usually someone dies long before you need to worry about it), but in long on going combats (especially hard to damage armored foes or highly evasive foes) it serves as the ultimate timer.  I've had combats where I was forced to go on the offensive and try to finish my opponent off before I simply bled to death...or else surrender.

Dead:  Self explanatory.



The tables are hit location tables.  You aim for a particular zone (like diagonal swing from the left) but you randomly roll on a d6 which location you hit in that zone.  Damage is a function of how well you hit.  Basically, Number of Successes from the attack roll + Weapon modifier (usually in the form of Strength + X) minus opponent's toughness and armor on the location hit.  

The result translates to a level of damage 1 through 5.  Cross referencing the location with the level of damage (on the table for the appropriate damage type...thrust vs slash etc) gives the combination of the above 4 damage types that you suffer.

Level 1 is largely of the "just a flesh wound" variety.
Level 5 is largely of the "spectacular death" variety.


Pretty involved, but flows really smoothly in play.  Hits are actually fairly rare, so unlike D&D where you do a little damage each round, in ROS you do no damage most rounds and then you finally land a nasty blow that ends the combat.
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Luke
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« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2003, 11:52:41 AM »

ok. that is all fairly straightforward and pretty easy to translate.

where do the die pools come from? what are they used for? Because right now it looks like the combat mechanic could be fairly easily ported without using big ol die pools. You'd just use Shock and Pain to reduce your dice like Midi+ wounds and Blood Loss would be Blood Loss. If we could keep the combat skills on the same scale as every other skill (ranged 1-10 dice), then the translation would be fairly easy.

then again, if the Shock and Pain came off of BOTH roots for the pool--the stat and the skill--then it would work just fine as is...

hmmm,

-L
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Bankuei
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« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2003, 11:56:34 AM »

Hi Luke,

The TROS rules use a stat called Reflexes and the character's Proficiency in that style of weapon to produce the Dice Pool in TROS.  

The key point of TROS is the strategy of how many dice to gamble in the first exchange vs. the amount you're going to need in the second exchange.  The more you use in the first exchange increases the likelihood of your success, or at least being in an advantageous position, but could leave you short on the second exchange.  The less you use in the first exchange is a greater risk, but with better payoff in the second exchange if you make it.

Chris
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Luke
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« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2003, 12:03:23 PM »

okee dokey. that seems fairly simple and elegant.

now, what are the ROS "maneuvers" like?

i know attack/defend options are done with a die drop.

-L
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Mike Holmes
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« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2003, 12:34:02 PM »

Here's an example that I remember off the top of my head. If a player uses the Beat maneuver, he's essentially knocking his opponent's weapon out of line, for every success he rolls the opponent loses two dice out of his pool on the next exchange. As with all maneuvers, if it's successful, you keep the intiative. So with a successful Beat, you hope that the opponent doesn't have many dice to defend with on the subsequent attack.

I'm forgetting nuances, but that's typical of how things work in general.

Mike
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