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Author Topic: Adapting TRoS Combat to Burning Wheel  (Read 14118 times)
Anton_Duelant
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« Reply #30 on: June 26, 2003, 06:54:13 AM »

Haven't seen any talk about shades.   How do you propose handling that?  Is the shade mechanic gonna make anything weird in terms of combat?  I don't know i'm just throwing it out there...
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Claymore
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« Reply #31 on: June 26, 2003, 10:40:22 AM »

Quote from: Anton_Duelant
Haven't seen any talk about shades.   How do you propose handling that?  Is the shade mechanic gonna make anything weird in terms of combat?  I don't know i'm just throwing it out there...


I don't think there would be any need to change the way shades work in relation to this system. A lighter shade is incredibly powerful as it lowers the TN on all dice by 1.

I personally am still on the fence concerning shade reductions, I am in favor of them for special creatures or supernatural beings, but for PCs the shade reduction is VERY powerful. I think I'd prefer it if the shade of each die was improved individually, but this would require 2 separete colors of dice and more bookeeping.

All this being said, it is just my initial reaction to the shading rules, I have not played a full camapign so I am not sure as to the lasting effects it has on the game.

I hope to have a rough outline of my RoS combat conversions later tonight.


Claymore
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Durgil
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« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2003, 11:42:09 AM »

Quote from: Claymore
I hope to have a rough outline of my RoS combat conversions later tonight.


Claymore

That sounds great!  I'm really looking forward to taking a look at it.
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Tony Hamilton

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« Reply #33 on: June 26, 2003, 11:54:18 AM »

Quote from: Anton_Duelant
I don't like the way either of system does armor.  But then again i've never found an armor system i like.  With armor rules you usually have to put yourself into one of two schools of thought-"armor absorbs blows" or "armor deflects blows"  The fact is some armors deflect, some absorb and some do both.  Its hard to make good armor rules I know this and I'll never be happy but hey a guy can dream.

-Anton Duelant
Recovering Power Gamer

I know about this fustration as well and have done a lot of research into the subject of medieval armour.  I'm currently waiting for my copy of The Burning Wheel, but I do own TRoS and fairly familiar with that system.  I 'm also quite familiar with the HârnMaster system, which contains some fairly good ideas IMHO.  Maybe, if time allows, we should try to collaborate on a more accurate way to account for the wearing of armour for one or both games systems.
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Tony Hamilton

Claymore
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« Reply #34 on: June 26, 2003, 02:32:29 PM »

Quote from: Durgil
Quote from: Claymore
I hope to have a rough outline of my RoS combat conversions later tonight.


Claymore

That sounds great!  I'm really looking forward to taking a look at it.


I'm plugging along, the thing is....I'm also moving my gaming store this weekend (eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeekk!) into storage, and two weeks later into it's new location. I promised my gaming group at least a half session (hey, they are helping move me), so I will have a bare bones outline up for comment. Will probably be missing fine details, but I can add those later.

Just a quick word to everyone out there who don't have both systems. My post will assume you have both books and I will NOT be publishing any of TRoS content, manuevers, etc., only notes on what to change to integrate the systems, even if they are listed in the quickstart. This is due to copyright. I strongly urge anyone interested to pick up both Games, neither is overpriced, and both have quite a bit to offer. In a pinch, you can download the RoS quickstart rules, but if you like the system you will want the full game.


Claymore
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Claymore
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« Reply #35 on: June 26, 2003, 07:23:07 PM »

Ok, basic guidelines are done. Please note, these are alpha rules. I'm posting them here for comment since I will be testing them tomorrow night with my gaming group. Some sections are still spotty (I havn't tackled the knockdown rules yet, some maneuvers need more reworking for the RoS/BW conversion, etc.). Any comments on the hiccups would be great. It's 11 here, I still have a half hour packing at the store before I leave (me ackin back!), but I will check back later.

Claymore

 Claymore’s Riddle of Steel variant combat rules for Burning Wheel (alpha test v.5, 6/26/03)
By George Thompson

Dice Pools
Take your relevant weapon skill and add your Reflexes attribute to it. This forms your base combat pool. You may fork in 1 related skill if your weapon skill total (not pool total), is 6 or less. If your skill is 7+, you may fork in 2 related dice. See the Burning Wheel rules to determine what skills are appropriate to be forked to your main combat skill.

Weapon Styles
TroS has a list of combat styles, and what maneuvers can be preformed with them. For the most part, use common sense when converting. Any style with shield requires the Shield play training skill to use the style with full effectiveness.

Initiative
Initiative is handled in a similar way to RoS, with melee characters pairing into groups and combatants rolling Red die/White die to determine if they are attacking or defending upon engagement. If it is necessary to figure out when a particular action occurs (such as when a missile shot goes off, or when a spell is cast), go by the reflexes of the character (higher reflexes goes before lower). If characters are engaged in melee use the reflexes of the character that has the initiative at the start of the exchange to determine when exactly the exchange occurs.

Note:
(TroS has no true group initiative rules, you simply pair up the best way you can and fight. For the most part, the system actually works pretty well, but breaks down when trying to figure out if a missile shot occurs before two characters exchange blows, or when you cast a spell, at the start of combat when people are moving, etc. it’s a problem I have had running the game on more than one occasion)

Note 2
(I still need to consider bow fire and spell casting times. Spell casting times will vary based upon the amount of syllables that need to be spoken to cast the spell. I will work on this over the weekend. Any comments in the meantime are always appreciated.)

Stances
Stances work the same as in TroS. You can choose Aggressive, Neutral, or Defensive. A stance in these combat rules only last for the first exchange, or until the combatant’s break and re-engage. The dice bonus does not continue throughout the combat.

Exchange of Blows
As in RoS, each round consists of 2 exchanges, each 1-2 seconds long. During each exchange a character may take a single action. The aggressor may take any one applicable offensive Maneuver, while the defender may choose 1 appropriate defensive maneuver. Once both exchanges occur, all dice pools refresh (go back to their base value, minus any modifiers due to injury)

Once the attacker has decided the offensive maneuver he wants to perform (such as cut, thrust, or bash), he declares his action and indicates how many dice from his pool he wishes to expend to make the attack. The defender may then choose a defensive maneuver (such as block, parry, or counterstrike), and declares how many dice he wishes to use to defend himself with. Should the attacker hit (i.e. roll more successes then the defender), resolve damage. The attacker may choose to press the attack (by declaring another attack and allocating dice), or may voluntarily pass the initiative to the defender. Should the defender roll more successes than his opponent he may now switch rolls becoming the attacker, putting his opponent on the defensive. Once two exchanges have occurred, all pools refresh and a new round begins. (See TroS combat rules for full explanations of maneuvers and combat actions that may be taken)

Note On Maneuvers
Some maneuvers (such as evasive attack) modify your TN or your opponents. Rather then alter the TN, raise the obstacle instead. Therefore, is you were performing an evasive strike, your opponents obstacle would raise by 1 for each die you expend from your pool, while your obstacle will raise by 1 for every 2 points you spend from your pool. This makes for a more subtle change in one’s chances of success or failure. A few maneuvers (such as evade) will need to be re-worked, I hope to have these online by Sunday.

Note on Shields
Shields (and other parrying items) add dice to your pool rather then lower your TN. Use the BW shield dice rules listed on page 107 of the main rulebook.

Terrain
Different types of terrain add to your manuever obstacle, they do not affect the TN.


Aiming
In TroS, attacks are never made at a random location; you need to declare which area of the body you are targeting with your attack. We intend on keeping that flavor with these rules. Declare the zone you are aiming for before you make your attack. If you hit your opponent, roll a single d6 to determine the exact location in the zone struck. If the character has any armour on the location, he can attempt to make an armour save.  

Damage
Damage is determined the same way as with burning Wheel, with a few small changes. Rather than the standard IMS (Incidental, Mark, and Superb), we now have IMSA. The first 3 levels remain the same, the forth is known as Amazing (Luke, feel free to change this to any adjective you want :-), and does double the damage of a Mark result. Therefore if you had a sword with an add of 2, 6 additional successes would yield an Amazing result.

Weapons
Use BW weapons stats, but ignore VA and speed.

Armour
Armour follows the spirit of BW but works slightly differently. After your strike your opponent and determine the severity of the blow (IMSA), your opponent may make an armour test if he is wearing any protection on the area hit. 3 dice are rolled with a TN equal to the type of amour worn (see BW for armour TNs). Each success on an armour die decreases the severity the wound received by 1 level. Therefore if your enemy took a Mark hit and received a single success on his armour check, the severity of the hit would be downgraded to an Incidental hit. If your opponent got 2 or more successes on the armour test, the armour  would negate the wound. Note that the best you can do if you receive an Amazing severity wound is reduce it to an Incidental hit (with all armour dice coming up successes).

Armour Failure (optional)
Armour fails if a majority of the armour dice come up 1’s. If you are wearing superior quality armour, your armour only degrades if you roll all 1’s. Primitive armour degrades a point if any die comes up a 1. (one could also experiment with rasing the TN on on an armor failure rather than lose a die, just a thought.)

Apply damage as you would normally in BW, but use the following effect penalties.


Effects of Injury
There are now 2 things to worry about when damaged, shock and pain. A Shock penalty immediately subtracts dice from your combat pool. Should the shock received exceed your combat pool, any remainder is paid at the start of the next round (when all dice pools refresh), unless your pain penalty is greater. Shock is only a one-time penalty, when your pool refreshes the dice come back.

Pain is subtracted from all pools and skills at the beginning of a round.


Wound      Shock   /Pain
Superficial                   -1D   /nil
Light      -2D   /nil
Midi      -4D   /-1D
Severe      -6D   /-2D      
Traumatic                   -8D   /-4D
Mortal       Doesn’t matter you aren’t going anywhere (or doing anything)

Modifiers to Shock and Pain
Some areas of the body are a heck of a lot more sensitive then others. If any of the following locations are struck add 50% to the shock and pain values and increase any nil results under pain to –1D:

Head
Face
Neck
Groin


So if poor sir Miles (had to use him in an example somewhere :-) takes a groin hit and after armour protection (thank goodness for the codpiece), receives an Incidental hit. His opponent has a sword with a Mark damage of 7, so he inflicts 4 points of damage because of the incidental wound (Incidental damage is ½ of Mark damage round up, for those of you who don’t have a copy of BW, and shame on you, go to http://www.burningwheel.org and order one right now!). Sir Miles takes a superficial wound and looses –2D for shock from his dice pool immediately, and will lose –1D due to pain at the start of the next round. If he survives the combat he may gain a new nickname from his companions.  
 
Degrees of wounds to limbs (optional)
If a limb takes a severe or greater wound it is rendered useless until medical attention can be rendered. If a character is carrying a weapon he drops it, if hit in the leg he goes to one knee, a hip shot will knock a character prone, etc. Use common sense when determining the effect of the attack.


Design Notes
These rules are based upon my own personal preferences (and prejudices) of both games, they do not represent the best or only way to use TRoS with BW. As a matter of fact, when designing these rules I thought of many different ways to do quite a few things. This system captures what I like best of both games, the realistic flow of battle, targeting zones of the body rather than swinging wildly, damage rules that are realistic, allow for randomness, and also don't set into stone the exact effects (no charts telling me what just got cut off Fred), but take some account of the effect of damage on the location hit.

Any comments are more than welcome!

-Claymore
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Luke
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« Reply #36 on: June 26, 2003, 09:19:13 PM »

Hi Claymore (George),
interesting stuff. seems a pretty slick amalgam of the two sets of rules. I am glad you used the BW wound stages with the ROS effects. It makes it all so simple! (though your wounds penalties are harsh! )

One question: Why are you ignoring Versus Armor? Maces and Swords can be very different weapons when beating against metal plates.

Also, if you are going to stick with your BW-ROS wound stage/penalty amalgam, I don't think you will have any problems with Bow and Spell damage. They both use IMS like other weapons, so they can benefit from your rules as well.

Timing of bows and spells in combat might be a little difficult without the scripting mechanics. I prefer exact timing mechanics, but it could be simplified:

Bows fire every third exchange. They fire simultaneously with any hit. Speeding this process up by one exchange raises your to hit Obstacle by 3.

Thrown weapons are launched every two exchanges. Speeding this process up raises your obstacles by 3.

Unloaded crossbows just take too long to load in combat to make a difference.

Any loaded or readied missile weapon should be able to be discharged in the first exchange. Simultaneous hits make the world go round!

I don't think missile weapons should use a "pool" like combat. It's not the same kind of face-off when you are shooting someone as when you are coming to blows. I recommend using the standard skill vs obstacle tests described in BW.

Spells are a little different: I recommend 4-6 syllables an exchange.
They should be cast as per the standard BW spell casting rules.

thanks so much for posting these, george! They are very cool.

-L
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Claymore
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« Reply #37 on: June 26, 2003, 10:12:08 PM »

Quote from: abzu
Hi Claymore (George),
interesting stuff. seems a pretty slick amalgam of the two sets of rules. I am glad you used the BW wound stages with the ROS effects. It makes it all so simple! (though your wounds penalties are harsh! )


Thanks for your speedy reply Abzu! (Luke) I'm glad you like the result of my efforts. I think it serves the needs of my group, but no plan  survives contact with the enemy, so we will see what happens when I playtest the rules!

I thought that the pain effects were straight out of BW (with the exception of super/light altering TNs), but I could of been mistaken, I'll re-check BW tonight. As for shock, the concept comes from RoS, and I like the mechanic, the numbers listed similar to a chest hit (in RoS). I suspect even after adding forks/reflexes to the skill BW pool will be a little smaller than RoS, I may need to adjust those numbers down alittle bit. I'll be able to comment more on Sunday. One thing I didn't factor in was RoS Willpower affects shock and pain. The charts usually list a number -Willpower. What's your opinion Luke, should I just lower the penalties or have Willpower play a roll in the penalty received?

As for keeping BW wound levels, it's a heck of a lot easier than trying to convert RoS wound system for non combat damage to BW. I don't want to have to worry when a mage casts a spell, or a character falls. You have those rules well defined. Besides, while Ros has excellent damage rules relating to combat, their damage rules for all other areas are somewhat lacking (with the possible exception of magic)

Quote

One question: Why are you ignoring Versus Armor? Maces and Swords can be very different weapons when beating against metal plates.


Because in BW, any single success on an armour (sorry, I prefer the British spelling of the word) blocks all damage, where a success in my mechanics only lowers the severity of the wound by 1 level. Add VA to this and in my opinion armour is not worth a damn. I can see how it plays out though.

Quote

Also, if you are going to stick with your BW-ROS wound stage/penalty amalgam, I don't think you will have any problems with Bow and Spell damage. They both use IMS like other weapons, so they can benefit from your rules as well.


It was my intent all the long :-)


Quote

Timing of bows and spells in combat might be a little difficult without the scripting mechanics. I prefer exact timing mechanics, but it could be simplified:

Bows fire every third exchange. They fire simultaneously with any hit. Speeding this process up by one exchange raises your to hit Obstacle by 3.

Thrown weapons are launched every two exchanges. Speeding this process up raises your obstacles by 3.

Unloaded crossbows just take too long to load in combat to make a difference.

Any loaded or readied missile weapon should be able to be discharged in the first exchange. Simultaneous hits make the world go round!

I don't think missile weapons should use a "pool" like combat. It's not the same kind of face-off when you are shooting someone as when you are coming to blows. I recommend using the standard skill vs obstacle tests described in BW.

Spells are a little different: I recommend 4-6 syllables an exchange.
They should be cast as per the standard BW spell casting rules.

thanks so much for posting these, george! They are very cool.

-L


I'll go with what you just gave me. We'll see how it runs.

I also had a question for you. Since we are assuming every shot is aimed, there is a good possibility of an arm or leg getting hit. I wanted a simple "this level of wound incapacitates the limb" rule. In the mechanics I posted, I set the severity of wound as Severe+. Does that work for you, or would you reccomend a higher or lower level of wound to knock out capacity to the location? I based my decision on your comments in the damage rules as well the penalty received when taking that level of wound.

Thanks again for your comments! I know it must be hard without a full version of RoS.

Claymore
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Luke
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« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2003, 10:29:20 PM »

i was teasing about the wound penalties. I actually think the shock and pain division is rather elegant and the die penalties should work fine.

Since BW doesn't favor "hit location" stuff (a Severe is a Severe in your gut or in your ear), I tend to think the "called shot to the groin, additional -1D of pain" is just heaping on a little extra abuse. But that's just me.

A Severe wound is MORE than enough to "incapacitate" a limb. But I gotta ask again, isn't the -2D enough of a penalty? Sheesh, I can't believe I am fighting against more grit in the game! Anyway, your judgement is sound, Severes cripple limbs and remove hands.

Quick question: When you take a wound, does the Shock and Pain double up? Meaning if take a Midi, is that actually -5D as you are hit? Or is it -4D temporarily and then once you "refresh" you're at a permanent -1D?

And to clarify, Shock ONLY deducts from your combat pool, right?

Lastly, if you are worried about the Combat Pools being a little shy of ROS, open up the FoRK rules a bit. Allow players to FoRK in any and all martial skills and maybe even Intimidation. We allow multiple FoRKs in combat in the basic BW rules and it works just fine. (And we don't have to worry about 8 dice of Shock!)

thanks again!
-L

btw, i will get a copy of ROS. I am currently saving my pennies, though. Got to save up for Gencon!
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Claymore
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« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2003, 10:44:27 PM »

Quote from: abzu


A Severe wound is MORE than enough to "incapacitate" a limb. But I gotta ask again, isn't the -2D enough of a penalty? Sheesh, I can't believe I am fighting against more grit in the game! Anyway, your judgement is sound, Severes cripple limbs and remove hands.  


Good good, thanks :-)

Quote

Quick question: When you take a wound, does the Shock and Pain double up? Meaning if take a Midi, is that actually -5D as you are hit? Or is it -4D temporarily and then once you "refresh" you're at a permanent -1D?


And to clarify, Shock ONLY deducts from your combat pool, right?



Shock is immediately deducted from your pool. If you cannot pay the full shock, the remainder comes out of your pool the next round... Unless the pain inflicted from the wound is higher. Pain sets in at the start of the following round. I think I put that in the post, if not that's the way I intended it :-)

And yes, shock only comes out of your combat pool (although if a spellcaster is hit it could come out of his pool as well, I suppose. It does not penalize skills as written, and I don't think it should.


Quote

Lastly, if you are worried about the Combat Pools being a little shy of ROS, open up the FoRK rules a bit. Allow players to FoRK in any and all martial skills and maybe even Intimidation. We allow multiple FoRKs in combat in the basic BW rules and it works just fine. (And we don't have to worry about 8 dice of Shock!)

thanks again!
-L

btw, i will get a copy of ROS. I am currently saving my pennies, though. Got to save up for Gencon!


I'd rather tweak my modifiers to fit into your system then start messing with the fork rules. It's just a matter of fine tuning during play test.

As for RoS, I'm sure Jake will hook you up with a deep Indie Discount at the show :-) Like i said though, make sure you are nice to him because a) he's a giant, and B) he knows way more on how to kill with a weapon than everyone here combined :-) As a matter of fact he is taking some sort of test this weekend in the weapon art he practises (there is a post about it over at the RoS forum)

-Claymore
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Claymore
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« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2003, 10:54:06 PM »

Quote from: abzu


A Severe wound is MORE than enough to "incapacitate" a limb. But I gotta ask again, isn't the -2D enough of a penalty? Sheesh, I can't believe I am fighting against more grit in the game! Anyway, your judgement is sound, Severes cripple limbs and remove hands.  


I had one more quick comment to make here. I was thinking of dropping (or lowering) the penalty to the limb, you lose use of the limb but there is no other major penalty (other than pain). Body hits would cause the -2 to pain because of severity. Or I could throw out the Incapacitation rule all together and just keep the penalty as written. That's why I left it as an option. Still mulling it over. Any body else got a point of view on the matter?

-Claymore
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Luke
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« Reply #41 on: June 30, 2003, 02:34:02 PM »

so?! what happened? Did you play? I am dying to know!

-L
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Claymore
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« Reply #42 on: June 30, 2003, 05:08:09 PM »

Quote from: abzu
so?! what happened? Did you play? I am dying to know!

-L


Sadly, we did not get a chance with the move and all (it was wasn't pretty, but we had 8 people, so we got it done in quick order). We should however be getting together this Friday. I have been working on converting all the RoS manuevers to BW, I hope to have them up in a day or so. In the meantime Luke I have a quick question for you. How would you suggest handling advancement rules for weapon skills when using the skill+fork+reflexes formula?

I'm also considering stealing a bit more from TRoS reguarding armour, because a) I'd like to see armour play a slightly larger roll, and b) my players have threatened to kill me if I didn't make armour more effective ;-)

What I'm considering is adding +1 to the defender's overall level of success if wearing leather, +2 for chain, and +3 for plate. VA would go right back in an subtract from this number (but would never create a negative modifier).

My players are otherwise excited about BW, and the RoS conversions, some of them have played before during your demo of the game at my store. We only had 1 problem with the conversion. One player started the campaign with a 16 year old character. When we converted him he only had 9 skill points.  Since this character had been on many adventures after creation I gave him an extra 7 points which made him happy, everyone converted with ease (with the experienced characters getting a few more points)
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Luke
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« Reply #43 on: June 30, 2003, 07:43:02 PM »

regarding combat skill tests:

i can see two ways to go about this. First, is to just compare the combat pools of the combattants and base the difficulty of the combat on those numbers. Roughly: Combat pools less than yours are Routine tests, about equal to or slightly less than are Difficult tests and CP greater than yours is a Challenging test.

The other way requires slightly more bookkeeping, but it's how we work it in our BW game (and it works just fine). Take the most "difficult" die roll of the encounter and use that to judge the tests. Meaning: You end up Blocking a 10D Strike with only 2 defense dice. If you live, that is definitely a Challenging test!

As for armor: Your 3D/Location method seemed rather elegant and simple. I recommend playtesting it before modifying it further. If you do need to change, remember to try to keep it simple! (I know, I know, I need to take my own advice.)

Lastly, some characters can't be burned. Especially younger characters who started their career early and have been on a number of adventures. This goes double when translating from another system. I think you did the right thing, though. Take the Burner as a basic frame work and then add on from there. When I do this, I usually add 6-12 skill points over what the Burner gives, and 1-3 stat points. However, this is very situational. If I want to make the Mother of All Badguys, I just give him 6s, 7s and 8s where needed. But I if I am trying to create a March Warden who is the veteran of a long quest into lands unknown, then I use the above formula.

I am very curious about the ROS/BW translation process though. Is there anything you could post to enlighten us benighted souls?

-L
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Claymore
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« Reply #44 on: June 30, 2003, 08:13:57 PM »

Quote from: abzu
regarding combat skill tests:

i can see two ways to go about this. First, is to just compare the combat pools of the combattants and base the difficulty of the combat on those numbers. Roughly: Combat pools less than yours are Routine tests, about equal to or slightly less than are Difficult tests and CP greater than yours is a Challenging test.

The other way requires slightly more bookkeeping, but it's how we work it in our BW game (and it works just fine). Take the most "difficult" die roll of the encounter and use that to judge the tests. Meaning: You end up Blocking a 10D Strike with only 2 defense dice. If you live, that is definitely a Challenging test!


One more thing to throw out to you concerning the mod. In the mod certain maneuvers cost dice to perform, or gain additional effect for each die you sacrifice from your pool. Check out bind and strike, cut, and evasive attack for examples (I hope they are in the quickstart). Do you see any problems with these mechanics with the second set advancement rules you just outlined?

Quote from: abzu

As for armor: Your 3D/Location method seemed rather elegant and simple. I recommend playtesting it before modifying it further. If you do need to change, remember to try to keep it simple! (I know, I know, I need to take my own advice.)


I agree the origional approach is easier. I will playtest the rules as first written, or change them mid game if they appear to be a problem. What I liked about my most recent mod was that armour both deflects as well as absorbs (the only other game I've seen take a similar approach was GURPS), which a poster here called for.


Quote from: abzu

I am very curious about the ROS/BW translation process though. Is there anything you could post to enlighten us benighted souls?

-L


I'm working on the maneuver conversions now, but to be completely honest, very little needs to be changed. Altering TN for Obstacle works quite well and only in a few instances does a maneuver need to be smoothed over around the rough edges. The systems are very compatable (once a decision was made about damage/wounds). Is there anything in particular you'd like me to post?

-Claymore

BTW, I am reading over your alternate artha rules now and intend to use them during the campaign (they look really cool, other than the maintenance required, but players will joyfully write anything down to advance their characters ;-). Is there anything there specific you want me to watch for short/long term?
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