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I kind of like having Sorcerers with that much power at their disposal and will proabably use the rules as written.

Want to destroy Weyerth? Sure go ahead. It will be a short campaign though.

I will assume almost all NPC Sorcerers have vagaries at about 2 though, rather than three. Most of them will have a C in proficiencies not an A. This will cut NPC  power down a bit an may reduce the PC's urge to compensate.


As far a body hopping I will allow it as well and you won't need a gifted body to do it. More fun that way.

Oh and a final notes, as to the "Obliterate spell" if it doesn't work as written I will just add a "friction shield" component to it. Thats movement 3 at no extra cost----
Thus you will lose no mass and will pack a lot more kinetic energy, ouch....

Quote from: Lyrax
A bit more seriously, though, nobody says that the rock is accelerating towards the speed of light (indeed, instantaneous acceleration would indicate otherwise), thus its mass would not balloon into infinity.  

Nobody says that?  Really, what if I, the sorceror, say that?  In truth, the fact that the acceleration is infinite makes things much worse because it implies a literal infinite quantity of energy (not just near infinite).  You are right that the mass would not balloon towards infinity.  It would instantaneously become infinity.

Literal infinite energy.  You've roundaboutly implied that a sorceror flinging a rock is capable of destroying not only the planet, but the entire universe.

It seems to me that the only reason movement 3 doesn't routinely destroy the universe is because sorcerors are bending the laws of the universe in such a way as to preserve their own existence.  Doesn't mean that they have to.

I'm just going to leave the issue of objects travelling at full light speed alone at this point, because that's just too messy.

Quote from: Lyrax
Sculpture would be needed in order for the rock to maintain its form (we can't have 1000 kilogram rocks just disintegrating all over the place, now can we?)

Sure we can.  The rock disentigrating is actually quite a nice side effect.  Atmospheric nuclear fusion is a good thing when you're trying to cause mass destruction.  All that energy is still transfered to the planet whether the object stays cohesive or not.

Quote from: Lyrax
and, unless you don't mind being close to the epicenter, Vision would be needed to see what one is doing.  This makes the obliterate spell a Spell of Three, not unlike Fold or Smite, which are given in the book.  Incidentally, the Spell of Three bit sort of reminds us why it hasn't been done accidentally.  

If it's done accidentally or in a fit of passion, the Vision component is unnecessary (we were discussing suicidal mages after all).  And let's face it, Vision 3 doesn't help much when you are destroying the entire planet.

Quote from: Lyrax
Also, Einstein hasn't been born yet, and for all we know physics on Weyrth is different than physics on Earth.  

Relativity exists with or without Eistein.  Now, obviously you can use magic to circumvent the natural laws (moving things at light speed without destroying the planet, folding and such).  But that's not to say you can't use those same laws to your advantage (moving things at near light speed expressly to destroy the planet).

Quote from: Lyrax
Thus, sorcerors can "accelerate" things to light-speed without destroying the world.  What light-speed really means here is: "As fast as your sorceror can imagine, which is probably pretty darn fast."

No, what "light-speed" means here is 327,857,019 yd/s (the number is written out right there in the description).  Sure, they can accelerate things to lightspeed without destroying the world.  We were just saying they can destroy the world if they really want to though.

Furious,

Of course you and others are correct, I didn't play with relativity.  I noted that when I said "basic mechanics".  I also did it for grins, because like Mike I like silly things like this; I just wanted to see how big a number 1/2mv^2  actually is when you go lightspeed. :-)

Light speed doesnt work in my campaign - I figure it's a few multiples of the speed of sound.  That's plenty fast.

-Jeff

P.S.  Actually, what all of you don't know is that magic wraps the object in a bubble of "anti-relativity".  Life goes back to Newton, and physics gets nice and simple once again.

Y'know, you wouldn't have to actually vaporize the planet, or even the atmosphere to destroy the world. Shatter the crust, and the volcanic activity taking place in the mantle will do the rest. You'll have a rapidly cooling, mishapen lump which used to be the mantle of the planet, surrounded by bits of crust floating around, which incidentally get caught back in the gravity well, and plummet to the ground as massive meteors, re-shattering the newly formed crust... you get the picture. Breaking down the molecular structure is hardly necessary.

Biggest thing though.. Magic generally does what it's intended to. Methinks that this is due to a greater flexibility than even the vagaries let on, and a certain energy-conservative principle, maybe even implying a certain low level of self-awareness. Unless the sorceror quite literally intends to destroy the planet, I really don't think it will happen, because this conservation principle kicks in on anything but literal intent. No one will be accidentally destroying the planet anytime soon. As for those who theoretically might intend to do just that, there kicks in the self-awareness theory. What is magic? According to the book, it's undirected life-force. Lifeforce tapped by sorcerors around the world to make things happen. Where does this undirected lifeforce come from? I would posit that it is a by-product of the actions and interactions of the living. Nothing new is created, and nothing is ever actually destroyed (ie, ceases to exist) it just changes form from matter to energy. So the sorceror conjures up some of this energy, using himself as a focal point (thereby burning some of his own energy to give the magic form and function) and releases it. When it's done it's purpose, it disperses back into raw lifeforce again, where it might eventually be called upon for sorcery again, or incorporated into more natural procedures, such as the growth of an embryo into a baby, and so on.

So now you've this mass of energy which has been channeled through countless sorcerors, and has at many points actually been congealed into a living, conscious thing.. You'd think it would retain at least a small level of this self-awareness.. a plant's level of self-preservation, at least.

Then along comes this grief-stricken, insane numbnutz who wants to call upon magic to destroy the world... destroy the entire cycle which magic has run through for untold eons... Methinks the magic will rebel, either as a conscious action, or in the same way which makes a venus flytrap close on a bug.. The magic will destroy the sorceror instead. So, want to destroy the world? G'head and try.

This also brings to mind another idea. Someone posited that magic ages you by accelerating time for you, and another responded with the theory that it just weakens your cells, in the same way that illness and injury do. I have a third theory to put forth on this topic. Magic ages you because you are using your body as a focal point for massive amounts of energy. For that moment, your cells are putting out massively higher levels of energy than what they're used to; effectively, they're in overdrive, all activities are going at a higher rate.. Thus, they burn out a little faster. There's no temporal anomaly which causes it. It's not an unnatural thing like illness or injury.. It's just natural processes accelerated, which would allow for the hair growth, the new wrinkles, etc; all the side-effects of magic use.

Furious D- Stop being so... literal and modern.  It's magic, and it works in very Newtonian ways.  Why?  Because:

A) It empowers Sorcerors to do what they want without worrying if they're going to destroy the world accidentally.
B) It's MAGIC.
C) It doesn't require an advanced knowledge of relativistic principles that will be argued by the players anyway.
D) It's MAGIC.
E) "Spells" do exactly what they are supposed to.
F) It's MAGIC.
G) It's easier.

On a side note, Sculpture WOULD be needed to keep the rock from losing shape.  Why?  Because, if the rock is accelerating, then it will disintigrate LONG before it even reaches Mach 10 or so, so you can forget lightspeed.

"Ah-hah!," you say, "But you said that the rock has infinite acceleration."

No, I did not.  I merely said that the rock was already at lightspeed.  This circumvents everything that has to do with acceleration.  You don't seem to really understand what I mean by this, so we'll ignore that.  Let's simply assume that you have a rock moving at the speed of light (NOT a rock going from rest to the speed of light, merely one that is moving at the speed of light).  Of course, the rock will turn into dust LONG before it turns into a nuclear explosion, so you'd still need Sculpture.  Otherwise, your 1000-pound rock o' death (tm) is now 1000 pounds of dust scattered between here and the target.

If you need a complicated explanation of why magic does not destroy the world or universe worthy of a physics lecture, then Wolfen's explanation will have to be good enough for you.

Wolfen - Thank you.  And, about your "aging," it seems that it's kinda like speed...  (gets mental images of Fey elves getting high on magic, and some very woozy fairies).

NO!! BAD mental pictures!  BAD!!

:-D

Quote from: LyraxFurious D- Stop being so... literal and modern.  It's magic, and it works in very Newtonian ways.  Why?  Because:

A) It empowers Sorcerors to do what they want without worrying if they're going to destroy the world accidentally.
B) It's MAGIC.
C) It doesn't require an advanced knowledge of relativistic principles that will be argued by the players anyway.
D) It's MAGIC.
E) "Spells" do exactly what they are supposed to.
F) It's MAGIC.
G) It's easier.

On a side note, Sculpture WOULD be needed to keep the rock from losing shape.  Why?  Because, if the rock is accelerating, then it will disintigrate LONG before it even reaches Mach 10 or so, so you can forget lightspeed.

"Ah-hah!," you say, "But you said that the rock has infinite acceleration."

No, I did not.  I merely said that the rock was already at lightspeed.  This circumvents everything that has to do with acceleration.  You don't seem to really understand what I mean by this, so we'll ignore that.  Let's simply assume that you have a rock moving at the speed of light (NOT a rock going from rest to the speed of light, merely one that is moving at the speed of light).  Of course, the rock will turn into dust LONG before it turns into a nuclear explosion, so you'd still need Sculpture.  Otherwise, your 1000-pound rock o' death (tm) is now 1000 pounds of dust scattered between here and the target.
:-D

No, it's 1000 pounds of dust moving at lightspeed toward your target. You really DO need to brush up on your elementary mechanics.

No Sculpture required. Ever. Period. I don't want/need the rock to keep from losing its shape.

Friction is trying to decelerate the Rock from lightspeed, which actually requires infinite energy, so there is no limit to the amount of energy which can be released by this spell, except what the environment will absorb.

To wit: this WILL destroy the planet, and nothing you can say can change that.

Magic in tRoS isn't Newtonian. If it were, the speed of light wouldn't even crop up in the movement vagary.

And you can give as many (silly) reasons as you want, that doesn't make it the case.

Not exactly.  If the rock were moving at the speed of light, it must necessarily no longer exist in the same universe as the "stationary" planet.

For my money though, all physics should be scrapped for fantasy worlds.  They don't mix.

QuoteFor my money though, all physics should be scrapped for fantasy worlds. They don't mix.

I've heard this sentiment before... Who said it? When...?


Oh, I remember! It was me, the LAST time we got into a big discussion on TRoS sorcery and physics. Sheesh. Give it a rest, can't we?


(Probably not.. And though I despise the topic, I'll almost guarantee that I'll pipe up the next time it crops up, too. Oh well. Makes for lively debate, needless to say.)

Lyrax- From one Lance to another, you're welcome. I'm kinda fond of my explanation(s) as well.

Bob - I think that the dust would settle harmlessly to rest.  Why?  Because the sorceror was moving the rock at lightspeed.  Now it isn't a rock anymore, so the spell ceases to work, and dust cannot go the speed of light without magical aid, so it ceases to go that fast.  Why is this so difficult for you to understand?  I mean, it's just magic, not relativity, not einsteinian physics, not a PHD dissertation or thesis paper.  The whole thing's really very simple once you stop overthinking it.

This is going to be a somewhat revolutionary idea, so listen closely:

The world when you play Riddle of Steel is an imaginary world, right?

And if you and your players play Riddle of Steel, it follows that it's your imaginary world, right?

If Jimbo and his players play Riddle of Steel, they play in their imaginary world, which isn't the same as yours - they might help Gelure take over the world, for example, which wouldn't happen in yours.

If all of the above is true, and you feel that sorcerers can destroy the world/not destroy the world/make crackers from salt and dirt/go take a flying leap, well, what difference does it make? In your world, that's true, right? In other words, is there a right answer?

If not - what's all this hubbub about?

You are correct, Clinton.  However, let me point out that we're doing this for fun, and that it's always neat to hear what other people think about the magic stuff.  Sometimes, even these discussions produce a great idea.

Quote from: LyraxBob - I think that the dust would settle harmlessly to rest.

You're quite wrong, of course. Not that it matters, this isn't even the easiest way to destroy the world with Movement Mastery.

For the record, you're the one who's overthinking it...trying to come up with (silly) reasons why it WON'T work as advertised. Sheesh.

That is incorrect.  I am the Seneschal.

Also, my "overthinking" takes almost fifteen seconds to do (during which I'm writing down the idea, otherwise it wouldn't take as long), for your information.

Hmph.

P.S.   <jk!> and :-p

This discussion has gone a bit far. But here I am anyhow. Says something, don't it?

Conservation of energy. If you can put a near infinite amount of energy into an object, which the power implies, then that energy is going somewhere. If it's in an atomosphere it will be transferred to the atmosphere (the exact mechanics of the destruction do not matter), and that near infinite energy will cause everything nearby to be destroyed. Put enough energy in it, the stone becomes near infinitely massive, and you'll destroy the entire universe by creating a black hole so big that everything gets sucked in. By-by universe.

Yep, this spell can do that as written, assuming that physics works pretty much the way it does in our universe.

Yes, the obvious thing to do is to say that physics do not work the same way. However, there are potential problems with this. Being a snakey player, if you tell me that relativity does not work in your universe, I can explain why I won't fall off that cliff, as gravity will not work now. The entire body of physics tends to work together as a whole. So it may be problematic to do it this way. This leads to the same arguments about why gunpowder does not work in a particular world, etc.

Not to say that this can't be effective. Before employing a method like this, just make sure that your social contract includes in it an understanding that these are conventions of the game which are not to be crossed. Once all players agree from the outset, there will be no player who will try to figure out a way to twist the rules so that they can acomplish such out-of-contract events. Or if they do, they are out of bounds, and can be censored appropriately.

This is a good idea for whatever solution that you come up with to this potential problem.

Mike

Quote from: Furious DYou need to recheck your relativity.

You're damn right I do. Don't know what the hell I was thinking of. And I can't beleive my ass has been hanging out for more than a week. Damn. What a mess. That's the last time I'm going to assume that I actually know something.

"Why the hell doesn't it happen more often" take 2
So with the existance of magic which can summon spirits & demons one is forced to except the fact that there are spirits & demons, (and following such a path we arrive at the existance of) gods and devils. Point being, none of the big boys are going to let some punk mortal knock all the sand out of their box. That's my call anyway.
Ah hell, I'd probably let them do it anyway.