Adapting TRoS Combat to Burning Wheel

[Luke]

well claymore? did you get a chance to playtest these rules? i am very curious as to how it went.

-L

[Claymore]

well claymore? did you get a chance to playtest these rules? i am very curious as to how it went.

-L

I did, things went very well. I'll make a full post to my campaign thread alittle later on, my time this weekend was occupied with the holiday, then......Star Wars Galaxies...Eeeekkkk! BTW, someone also posted they tried the rules this weekend over at TRoS forum, please tell me what happened! It's much different (and better) to get a blind test report then from the person that wrote it.


-Claymore

[Poleaxe]

Wanted to ask a few questions.  I just ordered Burning Wheel on great review, and I can't wait.  Claymore, I agree that I have NEVER been satisfied with the treatment of medieval armor in any fantasy rpg.  I posted an article in the TROS forum, which I included below for reference.   I think it's relevant for your conversion, which I think is an awesome idea, as the combat system for Burning Wheel is the one thing I read about that DID NOT excite (will give it a shot, though).  Heavier metal armors probably should deflect a little as well as absorb.  As one source I've consulted stated: a knights shield grew smaller as plate armor improved, since the knight was effectively wearing his shield.  That sounds light deflection to me.  

How does Burning Wheel handle armor?  Or should I just wait until it arrives?  AARGGHH!

-impatient Alan

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I just bought TROS, and it's a great realistic system, with one major exception in IMO (easily fixed, though).  Does anyone have a problem with the way that plate armor versus chain mail is represented?  The penalties for a full plate suit are just too steep according to my research (and I've been doing a lot of research on this lately, will take time to compile all the resources though).  TROS isn't alone though, many other systems represent Plate poorly as well, even more poorly (d20 and gurps come to mind).

A typical full suit of chain mail (including mail coif) weighed approximately 50 to 60 pounds, about the same weight as a suit of full plate.  For chain this includes the hauberk (which weighed anywhere from 20 to 35 pounds, possibly because some were actually two pieces, front and back), the coif – up to ten pounds, the leggings – up to ten pounds, plus all other areas (hands, etc.) and most importantly it included the significant padding/cloth armor worn underneath.  This was mostly necessary to reduce impact and piercing blows, AND to prevent infection from the chain mail being embedded in your flesh when you were hit with a strong sword blow.

Full Plate also had this padding/cloth/leather underneath the metal, but needed less of it.  Considering these facts and that plate was form fitted to its wearer, I can't think of any reason a designer would choose to represent a suit of full plate as being more difficult to fight in than chain mail.  If anything, since they are about the same weight and plate was evenly distributed (chain hung on the shoulders, but also fastened to the belt –leggings and hauberk – to put some weight on the waist), I would think plate would incur LESS of a penalty.  Was the higher CP penalty for full plate implemented in TROS for game balance?  It really does not seem realistic, the penalty should be the same as for chain.  Plate just cost ridiculously more!

And please don't say that the shoulder pauldrons were so large they were restrictive.  These kinds of shoulder guards did not come into use for plate until the later stages of plate: Gothic and Maximillian.  Then, yes, the –3 cp modifier would make sense, but so would an AV of 7 for the shoulder (something like that).

The only time plate was really cumbersome was during the mid-fourteenth century, a transitional period between full chain and full plate suits, when Plate (especially breast plates) were combined with full suits of chain.  Then, it makes sense for a total –3 cp to apply.

Also,  I think helmets incur to high a penalty.  Why a –1 cp for a chain coif?  Other than decreased perception (which probably should be a higher penalty for that attribute), did it really restrict combat ability that much?  Perhaps the increased perception penalty, plus an increased chance that a mobile opponent could take advantage (a chance to surprise his opponent as per surprise rules in TROS by performing certain maneuvers).  All in all, I would only give a –1 CP penalty to those full helmets that had those narrow eyeslits.  I will admit, perhaps I am wrong on the helmet.

But in general, it seems that most of the TROS research really focused on weapons research, particularly swordplay.  I looked at the list of sources in the back of TROS, which confirms my suspicion further.  No significant sources on the details of armor.  It really seems like this system is skewed towards unarmored (or lightly armored) combatants.  The fact of the matter was that the armor knight was a greatly feared Sherman tank of the MA's unless you were similarly armored, or you had superior numbers with weapons designed to penetrate plate or exploit its weaknesses (like polearms that hooked plated riders and pulled them off their horses).

Overall, I was significantly disappointed in the treatment of armor in the TROS book, even more so because so FEW kinds of armor are listed!  What about the important "coat of plates?"  I'm sure other people can list other kinds of armor as well.  I would think with all the weapons listed in the book (and the existing rules for them in this book are good enough to cover all the bases, IMO), and the $35 price tag, that more armor types would have been listed.  Are more listed in TFOB?  Even if so, should have been in the original TROS.

Otherwise, I think the system is great, and a much needed step towards better fantasy combat systems.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,

-Alan

[Luke]

Alan,

well, if you are dead set on historical accuracy, I don't know how you are going to feel about BW.

BW takes a very general approach to armor -- i don't trouble too too much with the myriad armor types. Mechanically there are only 5 types, and I don't even really talk about one of the five (full plate).

I also follow the opposite philisophy as ROS in regard to absorbtion -- BW armor only deflects.

It also causes "clumsy weight penalties" and breaks.

Overall, I really just tried to use a simple system that was fun and representative. I am sure that is what Jake was doing as well with the Riddle of Steel. That's an impeccably researched game, and I trust in his judgement almost more than I trust in mine!

-L

[Baron Guthwulf]

Very interesting stuff you talked about.
It would be great if Claymore, Durgil or somebody else could sent me his complete "house rules" via email.
I like the combat system of TROS, but from what i learned about Burning Wheel i prefer the Lifepaths, skills and traits and the d6 mechanics.
I'm really looking forward to playtest these add-on rules now that my copy of Burning Wheel is on its way to Germany.
My e-mail is
s.fenrich@web.de


Greetings from cold Germany.
Baron Guthwulf

[Claymore]

Very interesting stuff you talked about.
It would be great if Claymore, Durgil or somebody else could sent me his complete "house rules" via email.
I like the combat system of TROS, but from what i learned about Burning Wheel i prefer the Lifepaths, skills and traits and the d6 mechanics.
I'm really looking forward to playtest these add-on rules now that my copy of Burning Wheel is on its way to Germany.
My e-mail is
s.fenrich@web.de


Greetings from cold Germany.
Baron Guthwulf

My house rules are all pretty much here. I did have them all in a neat little word file but there was a fire recently in my store and all the computers took water damage. If I can recover the data I'll email you  copy.

Feel free to tinker with them as much as you like. Luke are you ever going to get around to making a combat conversion of RoS to BW? Feel free to pull anything you want from this thread that I've got here, the system worked out pretty well. I can't really put a lot of time to it at the moment (with the store and all). I did not even know the tread became active again until yesterday.


Claymore