[Monster Rules] An Outside Playtest

[mratomek]

I am not opposed to dumping the attributes--that's how the game started. But in the beginning, I quickly ran into problems of how does a character without a Strength or Brawl ability kick down a door? Or a character without Intelligence or Science stop a nuclear reaction from destroying the world.

I like your suggestion of a default dice: Minion D4, Hero D8 and Champion D12 for those situations. But, it makes some assumptions about characters that a player might not want. For example, my character is a floating brain, Champion level. With attributes I can give him a Strength of 0; with the default dice, he is still going to have a D12, which is powerfu.

So I will look at it. But see if the new streamlined power listings and simplified special abilities help.

I will post the updated special abilities, with new costs tonight--for you next play test. Try a game with some non-combative objectives, try using the attributes a couple of more times.

I am interested in playing this weekend with things more streamlined to see what happens. And using the changes to Fatality Rolls, costs, etc.

Some of these changes are sweeping, but they feel right in my gut.

Also, on the mini game thing. Yes, both players need to be made aware of the what skills/powers are necessary and at what level, but not necessarily what the challenge is until game time. A game description might say, the heroes will need a Science or Mechanics skill to beat a TN 12, but not know why.

Once a team is assembled, he finds out whether his selection was a good match or not. Also, you don't necesarily have to allow one player to create and the other player to pick, because if you decide to create a computer with a TN 20 security system, it's going to cost you 100 points. So it even it out a bit (you have 100 points less to spend on your characters).

The more custom stuff is still being worked out, but is a very important aspect of the game. Allowing players to quickly create balanced multi-game adventures is what makes the game far more enjoyable.

Thanks.

Matt

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I will post the updated special abilities, with new costs tonight--for you next play test. Try a game with some non-combative objectives, try using the attributes a couple of more times.

I look forward to reading the new rules.

I agree that non-combative objectives are fun.  That is one of the reasons the goal in my last game was not killing, but stealing loot/preventing loot from being stolen.

Still, I have a problem imagining having a fun game of Monster Rules without any combat.

I like your suggestion of a default dice: Minion D4, Hero D8 and Champion D12 for those situations. But, it makes some assumptions about characters that a player might not want. For example, my character is a floating brain, Champion level. With attributes I can give him a Strength of 0; with the default dice, he is still going to have a D12, which is powerful.

I see your point.  If this is a major worry, use the attribute system from my last post, where you could receive extra points by loosing access to a large number of powers or enhance all powers that share a linked attribute by spending points.  It becomes a tag like Psychic or Super Natural:  Flavorful, game effecting, but with only minimal extra complexity.

It even makes sense.  If you have a floating brain, he will not be able to brawl nor would he be invulnerable.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Bill,

The Special Abilities revision is posted at:

http://www.monsterrules.com/resources/Monster_Rules_Revision_1.pdf

It includes the new, Enhanced special ability modifier, has all of the other specific modifiers removed and has all the new point values. Furthermore, a few names have been shuffled around and Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly and Cosmic (new) have been changed to increase the PL for all attributes and powers.

I will post more of the rule changes this weekend with a revision sheet.

Thanks.

Matt

[mratomek]

Here's another sample character using the newer point system and changes:

Comrade Super
Hero (299)

St 12   12 Brawl + St (2D12) (Melee) (Skill): +1 Enhanced, Combo, Charge, Smash, Grab
Ag 6   12 Invulnerability + St (2D12) (Self) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced
Pc 8   10 Laser + Pc (D10 + D8) (Ranged) (Skill): Equipment, +1 Enhanced, Deadeye
Rs 8   8 Discipline + Rs (2D8) (Self) (Skill): Equipment
In 6    4 Search + Pc (D4 + D8) (Ext) (Skill): Equipment
Pr 6   
         
Ac 3   +1 Prodigy   
Sz 0   Heroic Deed
Lf 8   Disability (Agility)
Mv 6   
Sp Gd


I am using him in a game tonight.

I am also changing many of the effects that did not allow a power to stack with an attribute or vice versa to simply recude the total by half. The general effect is the same, but it is a lot less cruchy. For example, If you surprise an opponent, he still uses a stacked Strength + Invulnerability to make his defensive action roll, but the total is halved instead of messing aroudn with choosing to use Strength or Invulnerability and then which dice go with with which PL, etc.

I will try to post the rest of the text version asap.

MrAtomek

[Bill Masek]

Here is a possible Champion build using the rules you put forth in this thread.


She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion
Cost:  600 Points

Strength:  4
Agility:  0
Perception:  4
Intelligence:  4
Resolve:  24
Presence:  24
(120)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Life:  0
Move:  4 (10 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal

Cosmic

24 Allure + Pr (4d10+2d4)(Target)(Dimensional):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye

22 Cosmic Energy + Pr (3d10+1d12)(Target)(Dimensional):  Short Range

10 Dimensional Travel Pr (Self)(Dimensional)

24 Absorb Damage (4d10+2d4)(Self)(Dimensional)

20 (4d10+1d4) Absorb Effects (4d10+1d4)(Target)(Dimensional)

Disabled:  Agility


I like the new Mighty/Ultimate/Unearthly/Cosmic rules.  Very nice touch.  I'll send the new rules to my fellow playtester once I get them.  Then I will build the scenario.

Best,
        Bill

[Bill Masek]

There was a typo in my last post.  The cosmic energy power should read (3d10 + 1d12 + 1d4) instead of (3d10 + 1d12).

[mratomek]

That is one powerful goddess--but fun that you could make one.

I have her, with the new point schema--I haven't sent you all the rule changes yet--at about 500 points / 750 to use in a game.

I kind of wince at the dice combos--but I think that 750 points worth of heroes or a similar champion level character would give her a run for her money.

After all, she is a goddess. I mean, that is what those PL represent. Although, I think that's why I limited champions to 400 points, having both Cosmic and Eternal-jeez!

However, in a cooperative game or GM-led game, 500, 600 or 1000 points, its all good as long as everyone agrees.

For all her power, there are still some weaknesses that could be exploited--but not much.

I see you caught on to the same exploit I uncovered--a powerful character does not have to worry about paying for Life, I suppose. And I think that's Okay--ultimately, it could be her undoing. Need to play test that out a bit. Maybe 10 points per point of Life is too much though.

MrAtomek

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

Imagine her with Hardened on top of all that.

I built her using the new Special Abilities and the modifications you proposed.  All abilities that cost 1 costing 2, the 10pt/life cost the new fatality roll, etc.

I could easily cut the cost of all her powers by half by adding Drain:  Agility to them.  (Flavor wise, she is a haughty cosmic entity.  She is not going to be dodging anything.  The use of her powers exagerate that.)  If I needed to further pull points, I could halve them all again by making them equipment.  Both are exploits you might want to watch out for.

Best,
        Bill

[Bill Masek]

I ran the numbers again.  Point total was 412.  It is hard to keep track of the point totals, even with the aid of a calculator.  And even with calculators, veteran gamers make mistakes.

She Who is Heaven and Bliss

Champion

Strength:  4, 1d4
Agility:  0, 0
Perception:  4, 1d4
Intelligence:  4, 1d4
Resolve:  24, 2d10+1d4
Presence:  24, 2d10+1d4
(120)

Action:  4
Size:  2
Life:  0 (0)
Move:  4 (10 w/ DT)
Spirit:  Good

Eternal
(50)

Cosmic (+8 Max PL)
(100)

24 (2d10+1d4) Allure Tg + Pr (Dm):   Short Range, Power Down, Single Shot, Enslave, Mass x 16, Point Blank, Deadeye
((48 + 25 + 48 + 5 + 10)/8 = 17)

22 (1d10+1d12) (1d10 + 1d12) Cosmic Energy Tg + Pr (Dm):  Short Range
(22)

10 Dimensional Travel Sf + Pr (Dm)
(20)

24 (2d10+1d4) Absorption Au + Rs (Dm):  Damage
(48)

20 (2d10) Absorption Au + Rs (Dm):  Effects
(40)

Disabled:  Agility
(-5)

(412)


If I were to actually play her, I'd probably drop strength down by 2 and the damage absorption power down 4.

If I was at a tournament, I'd drop all her stats to 0 save for Resolve and Presence, then use the left overs to purchase Blind Fight (which would cover her only real weakness) and bump her cosmic energy ability up by 2.

But even that is still a sub-optimal build.  Absorption is not the most effective power, as you need to buy it twice to be useful.  Armor with the astral ability or astral form would be more efficient powers, although the latter doesn't work well VS AOE powers.  Agility is a more efficient power to link it to, so strength would be the disabled power and agility would be the second heavy one, linked to the Armor.  I'd also see if I could fit hardened into there.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I've been reading through the rules on how to build a custom scenario.  I have a few questions.

All Target Numbers for any challenges are set at
4 unless a player is willing to spend points to increase
it. Any points spent are deducted from that players
total PV for the next phase of play.... Whether a character succeeds or fails at his task,
you should assign some kind of consequence. If
the character fails at the task, a benefcial outcome
should be awarded to the opponent; if the character is
successful, then he is awarded the benefcial outcome:

Ok, so let me get this straight.  As the creator of the scenario, I decide who gets which tasks and their payoff.  The reason I don't give myself a task with a 100 point bonus upon completion of a 4 difficulty task is that my opponent could simply spend 50 of his 300 points to make the task impossible and he would get come out 50 points ahead.

So why wouldn't I give my opponent a 100 point bonus task, then I spend the 50 points to make it impossible for him to succeed.  I would have a windfall of 50 points, granting me a significant advantage.

Making the max point bonus 100 means they will have a very small impact on epic (1k+) games.

...an objective might be for a character
to hack into a computer system, rewarding the
character with 100 points if he is successful; on the
other hand, if hacking into the computer results in the
immediate end of game, then the objective is a victory
condition....An objective should be worth ½ of its GV and a
Victory Condition should be worth 100% of its GV.

How can a Victory Condition be worth 100% of its GV?  I see how the characters who are worth 100 points would be worth 50 GV.  But victory conditions have no point value, and their post-completion influence upon the game are arbitrarily high by default.  So what exactly do you mean by this?

Dwarven Stoneguard Door
Unlocking the Door TN 12 x 2
(Contraptions, Steal or Lore)
Finding the Door TN 12 (Search-Type or Lore)
Material Hardness TN 12 (Offensive Power)
The cost for the Dwarven Stoneguard Door would
be 48 points for each one used in the game.

So, when you encounter the stone door, what happens?  Can the characters simply decide to ignore it and walk straight through?  What rule forces them to stop?

Assuming that they do need to interact with it, do they need to unlock it, find it and break it?  Or can they simply do one of the three?

Are there any penalties for failure other then lost time?

Finally, where do you get the 48 points?  You have 3 abilities.  Is the highest TN the one that defines the cost?  If so, why haven't you increased all of your ability costs to 12x2?


I would like to use the new revision of the rules for my next playtest this Monday.  Unfortunately its already Saturday night and they are not yet up.  At this point I doubt that I will be able to assimilate them quickly enough to use them for my next playtest.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Sorry about the late response, Bill, I promised myself that I wouldn't work on the game on Sundays. I tried out a few of the rule variations on saturday and came up with a few changes I would like you to give a wirl on Monday. I will try to have all the text updates posted as soon as I can.

1. Minions can have 1 power at PL 12. All other scores must be PL8 or lower. Minions can use any special abilities that cost 5 points or less.
2. If hit for 1 wound, a Minion must make a Fatality Roll using a D6. 1-3 is failure.
3. Did away with Life all together. You can use Vitality to up a character's toughness. Whenever a character is hit and damaged, he has to make a fatality roll.
4. I changed Mighty, Ultimate, Unearthly and Ultimate. They were simply too powerful. I made each one cheaper but can only modify one attribute or power. Mighty +2 (15 pts), Ultimate +4 (30 pts), Unearthly +6 (45 pts), or Cosmic +8 (60 pts).
5. Absorption no longer includes Effects. Was just too powerful.
6. If a character is suprised, immobilized or Area attacked, reduced their total by half rather than not allowing a power to stack. In fact in any situation that normally wouldn't allow a power to stack, reduce the total by half instead.


So I recreated your character as follows:

She Who is Heaven and Bliss
Champion (398)

St   4   16 Allure + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Enslave, Mass x12 (x14), Point Blank,
Ag   0    Deadeye, Short Range
Pc   4    16 Cosmic Energy + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Skill): Short Range
Rs   24    16 Ego Shield + Pr (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Dimensional)
In   4   16 Absorption (Damage) + Rs (3D10 + D6 + D4) (Self) (Dimensional):
Pr   24    10 Dimensional Travel + Pc (3D10 + D4) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Short Range
      Eternal
Ac   4    Cosmic (Presence)
Sz   2   Cosmic (Resolve)
Mv   3    Achilles Heel (Allure)
Sp   Gd   Disability (Agility)


She was still deadly in play, but not 4D10+2D4 powerful. Having unlimited increases with Cosmic was just too much.

Ok, so let me get this straight.  As the creator of the scenario, I decide who gets which tasks and their payoff.  The reason I don't give myself a task with a 100 point bonus upon completion of a 4 difficulty task is that my opponent could simply spend 50 of his 300 points to make the task impossible and he would get come out 50 points ahead.

First off, the custom scenario area needs a lot of work. But it is very, very important. Especially in competative play. The development has to be very structured so that players don't try to hose their opponents. The idea primarly is that in order to make challenges harder for your opponent you must spend your points.

I need ot spend more time on this element, and would be interested in any ideas you might have.

So why wouldn't I give my opponent a 100 point bonus task, then I spend the 50 points to make it impossible for him to succeed.  I would have a windfall of 50 points, granting me a significant advantage.

True. But a Heroic Deed can always be used to score the auto success. But I do need to work this out.

How can a Victory Condition be worth 100% of its GV?  I see how the characters who are worth 100 points would be worth 50 GV.  But victory conditions have no point value, and their post-completion influence upon the game are arbitrarily high by default.  So what exactly do you mean by this?

I am trying to figure out a good process for developing point values for obstalces based on the total points available for a game.

So, when you encounter the stone door, what happens?  Can the characters simply decide to ignore it and walk straight through?  What rule forces them to stop?

Assuming that they do need to interact with it, do they need to unlock it, find it and break it?  Or can they simply do one of the three?

Yes, instead of unlocking the door, you can simply kick your way through the door. So you need to take into account that a player might simply try to break it instead of disarm it. Also, they might try to cricumvent it.

Sometimes they might only function to slow down an opponent.

I will try to get these section more defined for you and repost them.

[mratomek]

One more thing that became very obvious that might make reading a power listing a little easier. Lets say you have a character with Strength 16 and Brawl 14. The new power listing would look something like

14 Brawl + St (D10 + D4 + D10 + D6)...

I figure it would be easier to list the dice highest to lowest to make it less confusing to look at

14 Brawl + St (2D10 + D6 + D4)...

Then I thought, if I am no longer singling out attributes and powers when a character is surprised, immobilized, etc.--instead, everyting is just reduced by half--then it becomes even more simple to just use a combination of D10 and other dice to minimize the dice formula

14 Brawl + St (3D10) Melee, Skill: Combo, Counter, Knockback

[mratomek]

Updated rules for character constructions, power (Special Ability costs), Special Abilities, Time and Movement, and Action Rolls have been uploaded to the same revision 1 location.

MrAtomek

[David "Czar Fnord" Artman]

Hi again;

While this formula:

14 Brawl + St (D10 + D4 + D10 + D6)...

is mathematically equivalent to this formula:

14 Brawl + St (2D10 + D6 + D4)...

This "reduction":

14 Brawl + St (3D10)

is not.

d6 + d4 gives a range from 2 to 10; d10 gives a range from 1 to 10. In effect, someone who does that reduction is (a) changing the lowest possible value from 2 to 1, (b) influencing their outcomes to average closer to 5 rather than 5.5, and (c) switching from a bell curve range of value probability to a flat probability of each value. In short, they are making themselves suckier.

So I think you'd want to add a rule that players do all "summations" of stacking PLs BEFORE consulting the chart of PL-to-dice conversion. Basically, you want to try to keep folks from noticing that stacking-then-reduction makes them suckier than just stacking and rolling all dice (which would soon become a House Rule, if you let folks get used to seeing all the dice before the reduction).

HTH;
David

[mratomek]

I agree. And as long as the conversions are uniform--which they will be--it will work out. So its not a matter of converting the dice any way you want (PL 40 is not 4D10 or 10D4--it's always 4D10).

Thanks for the comment.

MrAtomek