[Monster Rules] An Outside Playtest

[mratomek]

One more thing to try: Some of the heroes were racking up the damage fairly quickly. So when Heroes and Champions make Fatality Rolls, they use two dice (That's two dice for their Life PL). For example, if a character has a Life 8, he rolls 2xD8 to make a Fatality Roll. Or if a character has a Life of 16, he would roll D01+D6 x2.

Minions, only the other hand, only roll one dice and always versus a TN of 4 (unless they have been hit for 2 wounds/Elimination, in which case they are automatically eliminated.

MrAtomek

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I like where this game is going.  I'm going to build a few new test characters and see if I can pull together another playtest.

A couple of questions:

We talked earlier about increasing the point cost of powers.  I noticed that most are at a 1/1 ratio in the new rules.  Is that a typo or a decision?

Have you considered condensing the powers a bit?  You have a lot of elemental/energy powers which all do the same thing.  It would be easier to read and build characters if all of the powers which were effectively the same were grouped together.  Same thing with control and travel powers.  It would also make the cool unique powers stand out more.  You already did it with Enhanced and it looks good.  I think you need to streamline the rest of the powers/abilities.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Matt,

I like where this game is going.  I'm going to build a few new test characters and see if I can pull together another playtest.

A couple of questions:

We talked earlier about increasing the point cost of powers.  I noticed that most are at a 1/1 ratio in the new rules.  Is that a typo or a decision?

If it states PL that means 2 pts per PL unless noted otherwise. I shold probably make that more explicit.

Have you considered condensing the powers a bit?  You have a lot of elemental/energy powers which all do the same thing.  It would be easier to read and build characters if all of the powers which were effectively the same were grouped together.  Same thing with control and travel powers.  It would also make the cool unique powers stand out more.  You already did it with Enhanced and it looks good.  I think you need to streamline the rest of the powers/abilities.

I will have a look through. The problem is I can put probably 15 of the energy/elemental powers together, and then there will be a few odd stragglers like Gravity, Web, Electromagnetic that let you do different things. It wil probably work fine, I just such a symetry freak.

I am planning on banging on the game for the rest of the month and then dive into a heavy rewrite and repost of all the rules in July for a larger, beta test announcement.

I will probably print a few as well so people can have a manual in hand. I will make sure to send you and your friends some copies.

I really appreciate all your help, Bill.

MrAtomek

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I will have a look through. The problem is I can put probably 15 of the energy/elemental powers together, and then there will be a few odd stragglers like Gravity, Web, Electromagnetic that let you do different things. It will probably work fine, I just such a symmetry freak.

I recommend that you create power-specific special abilities to cover the unique rules for those powers.  Who is to say that you couldn't use the powers of light to grab someone and hold them in place as well as blast them (green lantern, anyone?) or cast mystical gems which are especially potent vs evil?  You already have the power-specific special abilities for powers like absorb.  Now you need to take all the powers you have, group them, and allow people to customise them.

For example, nearly all of your defensive powers could be merged into 1.  Absorb, acrobatics, invulnerability, armor, resist, ego shield, etc. could all be one single power with options and special abilities to differentiate them.  Perhaps you need to choose, for each defense, whether it protects against Effects or Damage.  Then you can add special abilities like hardened, backlash, maneuver and everything else you might want to possibly effect their defense.  Perhaps by default it only protects against non-area of effect attacks and when not surprised, but defense for each may be purchased for a 1pt/pl.

I would recommend this format for the final power layout:

<player defined name>:  <number> <kind> (<dice>+<all relitive enhancements>) (<choices>):  <options>

example:

Crippling Stare:  16 Damage (1d10+1d6+4) (darkness, target, supernatural):  deadly, enhanced +4, gripping

where gripping would be the key word for the web ability.

I am planning on banging on the game for the rest of the month and then dive into a heavy rewrite and re-post of all the rules in July for a larger, beta test announcement.

I will probably print a few as well so people can have a manual in hand. I will make sure to send you and your friends some copies.

Very cool, I do appreciate it.  If you would like help tuning the powers so that they are balanced I would be glad to continue to lend a hand.  Otherwise, let me know when everything is ready for futher outside playtesting.

I really appreciate all your help, Bill.

You are welcome.  I have enjoyed helping.  I just wish that you lived in the chicago area we could actually meet and work on this game in person.  Who knows, perhaps we will meet at gencon.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

There was one more question I forgot to ask in my last post.  In your last post you stated:

If it states PL that means 2 pts per PL unless noted otherwise.

In the rules it says both:

Anti-Matter
Cost: PL

and

White Fire
Cost: 2 pts / PL

If the former means 2pts/PL then are the two priced equally?  Before you had Anti-matter priced cheaper then White Fire because of its situational bonus.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

the 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

And by all means, keep playing and sending me notes. The more playing done, the better the game becomes. You really understand what I am trying to do and your POV is very different from my own, which is very useful.

Keep your posts coming.

I have finally gotten around to updating the Website. It isn't much,but it is a lot more than was there before. The character on the front page will eventually be a random seed. Keep your eyes peeled for SHE. I will try to get some artwork done for her tonight.

MrAtomek

[mratomek]

Here's a quick list of power condensation into Damage, Defense, Psychological States, Skills, Travel Powers and a few odds & ends:


Agile
Alter Realtiy
Animate
Artistic
Astral Form: Astral Nova
Atheletic
Bluff
Blur
Business (Merchant)
Capacity
Cling
Communicate
Comprehend
Computers
Confuse (General Effect: Can't Command or Communicate or Attack)
Consume
Courage (General Effect: Gain +modifier)
Craft
Create
Culture
Damage (Aura)
Damage (Melee)
Damage (Ranged)
Death (Damage but an Effect)
Defense (Damage)
Defense (Damage & Effect)
Defense (Effect)
Defense (Effect & Challenge)
Defense (Damage, Effect & Challenge)
Doubt (General Effect: Gain -modifier)
Detect (ESP)
Weaken (General Effect: By Source all or specific power halved)
Dimensional Travel
Domination
Duplication
Elasticity
Entangle
Envy (General Effect: Must Possess something)
Good (Evil & Chaos) (General Effect: Control Spirit)
Growth
Fatigue (General Effect: Reduced Actions)
Fear (General Effect:runaway)
Flght:    
Friend (General Effect: Ally with target)
Hate (General Effect: Control who opponent attacks)
Heal
Holy (Unholy & Law) (General Effect of Damage vs. spirit)
Illusion
Immunity
Indifference (General Effect: won't Help)
Insanity (General Effect: Random)
Intelligence
Knowledge (Lore)
Leader
Leaping
Life Support
Love (Attraction): (General Effect: Will protect)
Mechanic
Mimic
Multi-Power
Null Field
Pacify (General Effect: Not Attack)
Paranoid (Genreal Effect: Attacks Everyone)
Paralysis (General Effect: Can't Move physically)
Perception
Phase
Pilot
Plague
Precognition (Post Cognition)
Presence
Profession
Unconscious (General Effect: No Actions)
Psionic Blast (Effect does damage)
Boost (General Effect: Raises attribute)
Ride
Science
Search
Sense
Sensory Negation
Shape Shift
Shrink
Slow
Sneak (Hide)
Speed (Haste)
Stasis (General Effect: Freeze body and mind)
Steal
Streetwise
Strength
Summon
Super Speed
Survive
Swarm
Swimming
Swinging
Symbiote (Possession)
Telepathy
Time Control
Transfer
Transform
Tunneling



Fire Blast: 16 Damage (Fire) (D10+D6+1) Melee (Dm): Combo, Blastx2, Grab, Smash, Charge

Wicked Blade: 12 Damage (Weapon) (Darkness) (Evil) (D10+D6+1) Melee (Su): Relic, Deadly, Cleave, Combo, Block


I like the idea of naming the power--that's just more Flava. I still think I will have people identify the Damage as Brawl, Weapon or some energy or elemental force, so that people can purchase an immunity or Achilles Heel.

I broke out Defense into five basic types, then people can buy additional abilities to negate the effects of Surpirse, etc.

Doomplate: 16 Defense (D10+D6+1) Self (Dm): Relic, Damage & Effect, Lawless

Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (D10 + D6 + 1) Self (Dm): Effect & Challenge


You could even have multiple powers under one name heading:


Hypnotic Stare:
     16 Domination (D10+D6+1) Ranged (Su): Linger
     16 Weaken (D10+D6+1) Ranged (Su): Linger

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

the 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

Is the cost supposed to be 2pts/PL like the abilities that just say PL, or is there supposed to be a different cost?

And by all means, keep playing and sending me notes. The more playing done, the better the game becomes. You really understand what I am trying to do and your POV is very different from my own, which is very useful.

I'm glad that I am able to help.  Hopefully I will be able to get more people to playtest with and be able to post results more regularly.

Keep your eyes peeled for SHE. I will try to get some artwork done for her tonight.

Cool!  Please feel free to use her and any other characters I send you.  Of course, I still reserve the right to use any characters I create in any games, works of fiction, etc. that I create, but please feel free to use her in any and all capacities for this game.


Here are some recommendations for further condensation:

Talents:  (Artistic, Business, Craft, Pilot, Culture, Ride, Science Computers, etc.)
Dominate:  (Insanity, pacify, paranoid, paralysis, <what is currently called dominate>, love, fear, etc.)
Stealth:  (Invisibility, sneak, etc.)
Sense:  (ESP, heightened sense, search, etc.)
Summon:  (Animate, summon, duplicate, etc.)
Travel:  (Dimensional travel, flight, swim, tunnel, climb, etc.)
etc.

Others, like Leader and Capacity should be left as their own abilities.

Basically, if a power has a similar effect to other powers then group it.  If you want that specific effect to be attainable, turn it into a limited special ability for that power.  You can even make the cost increase 0.

For example:  The base travel ability might let them walk at 1 PT/PL.  All other abilities (Dimensional Travel, Flight, etc.) may be purchased as limited abilities at a cost of +1 PT/PL with a limit of only being able to purchase 1.  Then allow all special abilities which are currently linked to travel powers to be linked to this power.  Some of them, like the ability to link the travel power to defense, might require the player to purchase one of those limited special abilities.


A couple of nit-picks:

I would like to see more special abilities like undead.  Also, make undead less expensive.  Hardened and Cosmic are damn powerful, but they have no draw back.  Undead has a huge drawback which makes it to weak at its cost.  Also, without more, similar abilities, there is little reason not to simply take the abilities which are vulnerable to as supposed to the ones that they are not.  If you had more abilities of a similar nature, this would be a non-issue.

Shadow/Dark is the Hellfire power on the cheep.  They are identical except the first says PL for cost and the other says 2 pts/PL.  If they are the same then both are superior to, say, Cosmic Energy which does not do any extra damage vs anything.

I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.

I have not tested it yet, but minions with Body Guard are looking VERY powerful.  I think its cool and flavorful, but watch to make sure that it is not game breaking.

I have not tested this, but taunt chains strike me as scary.  Hit opponent with a Taunt power.  Halve his defensive power.  Strike opponent again for twice the damage, halve his defense power again.  Hit opponent a third time for double damage.  Halve his next roll.  And just imagine, at the end of a turn, being attacked 40 times by 20 minions all with this ability.  I like the idea behind the ability, and I am not positive this is a problem, but playtest it to make sure.  Otherwise its a very cool ability with nice flavor.

Best,
        Bill

[mratomek]

Matt,

the 2 pts / PL is a typo. I will clarify all that.

Is the cost supposed to be 2pts/PL like the abilities that just say PL, or is there supposed to be a different cost?

2 pts / PL and PL both cost 2 pts / PL

Talents:  (Artistic, Business, Craft, Pilot, Culture, Ride, Science Computers, etc.)
Dominate:  (Insanity, pacify, paranoid, paralysis, <what is currently called dominate>, love, fear, etc.)
Stealth:  (Invisibility, sneak, etc.)
Sense:  (ESP, heightened sense, search, etc.)
Summon:  (Animate, summon, duplicate, etc.)
Travel:  (Dimensional travel, flight, swim, tunnel, climb, etc.)
etc.

I like the condensation where it makes sense, but I want to keep a distinction between the basics of what you can do (power) and extending that ability (special abilities). Otherwise, the game ends of with 3 powers and 1,000 special abilities. Then you have the same problem.

For example, there are some sublte differences between Animate, Duplicate, Illusion and Summon that I thnk make it easier to have them as seperate powers versus a single power with the sublties spelled out by special abilites.

I would like to see more special abilities like undead.  Also, make undead less expensive.  Hardened and Cosmic are damn powerful, but they have no draw back.  Undead has a huge drawback which makes it to weak at its cost.  Also, without more, similar abilities, there is little reason not to simply take the abilities which are vulnerable to as supposed to the ones that they are not.  If you had more abilities of a similar nature, this would be a non-issue.

Agreed.

Shadow/Dark is the Hellfire power on the cheep.  They are identical except the first says PL for cost and the other says 2 pts/PL.  If they are the same then both are superior to, say, Cosmic Energy which does not do any extra damage vs anything.

I need to look at that. I took the "modeling" approach to the disign, assuming players would pick a power based on what their character is. But there is a group of players that will always go for the throat and manipulate the system. The costs have to take that into account.

I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.

Its a balance issue versus throw. Need to work on it. But yes, there should be some basic SAs that are 5 points that a Minion can pruchase.

I have not tested this, but taunt chains strike me as scary.  Hit opponent with a Taunt power.  Halve his defensive power.  Strike opponent again for twice the damage, halve his defense power again.  Hit opponent a third time for double damage.  Halve his next roll.  And just imagine, at the end of a turn, being attacked 40 times by 20 minions all with this ability.  I like the idea behind the ability, and I am not positive this is a problem, but playtest it to make sure.  Otherwise its a very cool ability with nice flavor.

The most a character's roll can be reduced is by half. Regardless of how many ill effects he is suffering. I just describe it all as overkill. So even if he is immobilized, surprised, hit with an area attack and his power is malfunctioning, his total reduction is still half.

On the other hand, if his power was Destroyed or Crippled (permanent effects) and then he is Suprised, Immobilized, Injured, glitched, etc. (temporary) then it would be halved twice.

Try it this way, if the affects of the halving are only temporary (meaning they end at the end of the current Round, Turn, Action, when a character looses control or when a lingering effect ends), they do not stack up. If the effects are permanent (meaning they continue to exist from Round to Round without an end unless the character takes corrective action), then they can stack up.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I like the condensation where it makes sense, but I want to keep a distinction between the basics of what you can do (power) and extending that ability (special abilities). Otherwise, the game ends of with 3 powers and 1,000 special abilities. Then you have the same problem.

I do not believe that you will run into this problem for several reasons.

Most of the truly unique abilities like Leadership and Capacity should not be grouped.  They are unique.  They should remain unique.  However, with hundreds of very similar-but-not-identical abilities floating around these different and unique abilities get easily lost in the shuffle.

By grouping them, if somebody has already chosen an ability of a certain kind and does not want another, he or she can very easily skip over the rest.  On the other hand, if they want a specific kind of ability, it will be easy to find.  They spend less time looking through abilities and spend less time creating the characters.

The different between duplicate and summon is less then the difference between summon with the hero limited special ability and the regular summon.  The subtle grades can be beautifully represented in special abilities.  But if you spread them across the massive chapter, their subtlety will be lost to all but the most experienced players and they will seem identical.

Powers that I labled as talents are identical in that they provide silver bullets for situational problems.  The only time you can use pilot is if there is a vehicle.  The only time you can use computers is if there is a minigame with computers.  The only time you can use culture is the same.  Same with business.

If you want to say Pilot should be separate because it can be used with loose equipment then that's fine, but then expand on that in the description and group it with other powers that enable the use of loose equipment  (if any others exist) and group the silver bullets that can not be combined with loose equipment in another group.

Quote from: Bill Masek on June 10, 2006, 04:38:41 PM
I think you should move Point Blank back to a 5 cost ability.  I say this because I see no reason why minions should not be able to purchase this ability and its not all that powerful. If you think it should be moved up to 10, then let minions purchase abilities which cost 10.


Its a balance issue versus throw. Need to work on it. But yes, there should be some basic SAs that are 5 points that a Minion can purchase.

Point blank would have to be made a lot more expensive to make it, combined with short range, to be balanced with Melee + Throw.  A better balancing technique would be to give melee attacks some superior special abilities to balance them out.  Right now the only unique one they have is Cleave, which is a far inferior version of Blast x1 for the same price.  Their others like Combo and Charge are identical to Run and Shoot and Rapid Fire.

The most a character's roll can be reduced is by half. Regardless of how many ill effects he is suffering. I just describe it all as overkill. So even if he is immobilized, surprised, hit with an area attack and his power is malfunctioning, his total reduction is still half.

Actually, the stacking thing is not what I am worried about.  Halving an abilities is a scary thing.  The taunt chain can keep that target's defensive rolls halved for a very long time, vastly increasing the damage that target would receive.  Normally you need to exchange damage for this effect, but with taunt, its free.  I suppose I see it as kind of like Deadly but for 5 points instead of 50.  Still, it is a LOT more limited then Deadly and might not be a problem.  Just something to keep your eyes on during playtesting.

(Speaking of which, in my next playtest, I will have an army of Zibs (25pt cost minions) with this special ability to see how it plays out.)

Best,
       Bill

[mratomek]

I agree with pretty much everything you are saying.

By the way, if you do have any ideas for unique special abiliites, like Undead, please let me know.


Here's a Superman, with all the new notations and rules:

Superman
Champion (600)

Actions: 4
Default: D8
Size: 0
Life: D16
Move: 16
Spirit: Good

22 Strength  (D10 + D12) (Dm): Unearthly (5,000 Tons)
Laser Vision: 16 Damage (Laser)  (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dm): Deadeye, Sharpshooter, Point Blank, Single Shot
Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (Effect & Challenge)  (D16) (Self) (Sk)
16 Fight (D10 + D6) (Self) (Dm): Super Sonic, Swoop

+1 Planar
+1 Vitality
Heroic Recovery x2
Achilles Heel (Kryptonite)


Basic Strength can be used for Damage (Melee) attack and a Defense (Damage) defense. No other modifiers can be applied.

[mratomek]

I meant no other power specific special abilities can be applied. The Planar special ability does modify Strength.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

I think that you are on the right path.  Consider:

Superman
Champion (600)

Actions: 4
Default: D8
Size: 0
Life: D16
Move: 16
Spirit: Good

22 Strength  (D10 + D12) (Dimensional): Unearthly (5,000 Tons)
Laser Vision: 16 Damage (Laser)  (D10 + D6) (Ranged) (Dimensional): Deadeye, Sharpshooter, Point Blank, Single Shot
Defiant Spirit: 16 Defense (Effect & Challenge)  (D16) (Self) (Skill)
Super-sonic Flight:  16 Movement (D10 + D6) (Self) (Dimensional): Flight, Super Sonic, Swoop

+1 Planar
+1 Vitality
Heroic Recovery x2
Achilles Heel (Kryptonite)

Here's a sick little minion to think about (using the old system, because you haven't written the new one yet :P):

Errant Faithful

Minion
Cost:  25

Base:  d4
Action:  2
Size:  1
Life:  0
Move:  5
Spirit:  Good

12 Armor (d12) Self Skill:  Equipment
(12)

8 Weapon (d12) Melee Skill:  Equipment
(8)

Bodyguard
(5)

Desperation
(5)

Heroic Recovery x18
(90)

Vulnerability:  Psychic

Achilles Heel:  Psychic Blast

(50)

Best,
       Bill

[mratomek]

Errant Faithful

Minion
Cost:  25

Base:  d4
Action:  2
Size:  1
Life:  0
Move:  5
Spirit:  Good

12 Armor (d12) Self Skill:  Equipment
(12)

8 Weapon (d12) Melee Skill:  Equipment
(8)

Bodyguard
(5)

Desperation
(5)

Heroic Recovery x18
(90)

Vulnerability:  Psychic

Achilles Heel:  Psychic Blast

(50)

Best,
       Bill

ya, I was going to say the Heroic Deed, Heroic Effort and Heroic Recovery are ripe for abuse and to limit them to x2 maximum per character.

[Bill Masek]

Matt,

That makes sense.

If I read it right, then Heroic Recovery prevents all damage and effects from a single attack.  And it costs the same amount as a single point of health.  As you have it now, one must wonder why anyone would bother buying health since they should max out Heroic Recoveries instead.  If this ability functions the way I think it does, consider increasing the cost from 5 per to 10 per.  True, this would deny it from minions, but when is the last time a red shirt or other minion made a heroic recovery?

Heroic Effort is already limited to 1 in the rules, which I think should stay the same.

Heroic Deed strikes me as less broken, but limiting it to two makes sense.

Best,
        Bill