Taveruun

[Morfedel]

This is from the first page of the thread, but after reading thoroughly about Taveruun and Otamarluk, I have to agree with the below, that Taveruun won't be performing any MILITARY conquests at this time. To quote from the book:

Due to current altercation (war) with Otamarluk, any surplus [food] is being used to feed the army, and nothing is being sold at this time. Economically, it is beginning to destabilize the country, though they are not considered poor. Being outnumbered 2 to one in population density by the Marmaluks is also a strain on their ability to produce enough food, weapons and manpower to hold their opponent at bay.

From the above, its beginning to look grim. Its also looking odd seeing "2 to one" instead of "2 to 1" or "two to one"  *grin*

I have to side with Gary's view. Taveruun seems to be the, as yet, untaken Balkan states already late to be taken by the Turk. That is, in the RW, the Turk would already own all of this, and be beating on the doors of Vienna. Or to translate, this would put all Taveruun as client states of the Marmeluk Sultan, with their armies constantly threatening to invade Mainlund in terms of the Counter-Crusade.

Also, they'd recieve no help from the south. These nations are in no position culturally to aid. And even if they were, they'd stay out of it as they know that the Sultan has larger fish to fry than them, his eye set on the Imperial Capital as an ultimate goal. So why tempt his Ire?

In any case, with the Marmeluks even threatening, I don't see Taveruun as able to launch any attacks of their own.

But that's just my view of it (which may have been informed by Jake, BTW, at a con; I can't remember for sure). That all said, I think it sounds like an awesome place to adventure. Many fractured feudal states just waiting to be consumed by a titanic neighbor. Lot's of politics, intrigue and adventure to say the least. I'd play there.

Do you want to develop some of the canonical ideas further? Like the 8 compass point polities?

Mike

[Morfedel]

Add to that the paranoid and distrustful nature of Taveruun people, I'd say that Taveruuni society better go through a period of learning to trust others, or else they will never get the kind of help they need, and they will not last - unless, perhaps, they get their walls finished. Giving them enough fortification to foce the Marmaluks to lay siege instead of raiding may be a great boon, although that is a LONG stretch of wall to defend.

Jake, how closly does the Taveruun wall match the great wall of china? How much more or less large in scale would it be, and how successful do you see it in comparison to that wall?

[Morfedel]

I just saw something strange in the book:

...pay heavy tribute to Otamarluk, which funds add to an ancient war waged primarily on the borders of Helena and Dardanet.

From what I can tell on the map, Dardanet and Helena dont share any borders with Otamarluk?

[Morfedel]

Hm, now this is interesting.

Apparently, Taveruun IS being militaristic:

Currently engaged in skirmishes on their northern borders as both Taveruun and Dardanet encroach, Numeria strugges to maintain control of the river Anazum.

(sorry for all the micrposts here; i'm reading each of the prevalent countries in the region orbiting Taveruun to get a firm grasp of the situation)

[Morfedel]

Ok, I have been reading, and here are my thoughts of the region orbitting Taveruun, and her status therein:

Taveruun is in serious trouble from the military pressure from Otamarluk, as they are outnumbered 2 to 1, and their economy is beginning to destabilize: destabilizating of economy can cause social unrest if things don't, well, stabilize.

On the other hand... their wall is almost complete. Depending on how effective and powerful the wall is, it might, just might, create a bulwark that will allow Taveruun to bring the situation back under control, albeit meaning that they will have to act in a defensive manner concerning their eastern neighbor.

As such, I can't imagine Taveruun can mount a serious assault on anyone else in quest for Empire... but, as noted in one of my posts just above, they are already apparently attempting to annex parts of Numeria. So, they aren't being entirely peaceful.

Dardanet is also moving on Numeria, which means that, sooner or later, Taveruun and Dardanet would come into conflict - but then, Dardanet doesn't act in concert, but piecemeal, as they are a mess of internal conflicts. It occurs to me that playing a Game of Diplomats, playing off some Dardanet forces against another while positioning their forces to annex the river of Anazum; as rivers were the lifeblood of society in medieval history, this would be an economic boon, something Taveruun could benefit from.

And if the Taveruun diplomats can trigger a full scale civil war in Dardanet, allying with some sides, they can play the game and annex a piece of Dardanet as well, which might help them mightily in their resoure department, especially food when merged with the river's bounty.

Although this all depends on my above question, about how Otamarluk is waging war with Dardanet, with Taveruun in the way. :)

There is another interesting item to note, however.... Cast your eyes a bit south of Otamarluk, on the Eastern border.

There is a country there, known as Svarastra, and according to my map, it has a border in common with Taveruun. It is very rich, almost seeping in opulence. And their military is mainly for show. While a full scale invasion would be unrealistic, again because of the defense against Otamarluk, they could not begin a full scale invasion, but there would be an opportunity to take resources from Svarastra - or, perhaps, try a risky bit of diplomacy and demand tribute, much as Otamarluk has.

It may not work; Svarastra may protest and appeal to Otamarluk, whom they are already bribing... but they are also used to living in lazy oppulence, and paying for their privilege without much concern. They just may meet some demands as long as they aren't too massive.

There is a region of land just north of Taveruun, a narrow strip bordering Cyrinthmeir that is unlabeled - does that actually belong to Cyrinthmeir, or what?

[Morfedel]

Hey Mike, not wanting to refute your great ideas here, but their military I do not think would be ineffectual... they are, after all, on the border of Numeria, and as quoted above, they are in the process of pushing Numeria hard in attempting to claim the bordering river, and Numeria is having a hard time of it....

further, you said that relationships with Numeria are tense, but they arent attacking as they need imperial support, but since Taveruun is in the process of attempting to annex parts of Numeria, I think the point is a bit moot, eh? :)

just a thought....

Here's a map of Taveruun that I divided up into provinces for fun. It's at the Indie Netgaming site, so if you're not a member you'll have to sign up (yes this is a ploy to get you all to take a look).


The Imperial South County of Taveruun is considered a barbaric place in polite society. The people of the region have a tendency to have old Numerian religious practices, or some bastardizations of Imperial and Numerian, becoming more pronounced the closer to Numeria one gets. Away form the few cities life can be quite crude.

The only mitigating factor to this is the civilizing effect of the Imperial Road which terminates at the County Capitol. The great city of Ilitzi lies at the mouth of the Urdza river where it empties into Saphire Bay. An ancient trading port, it is the last Imperial controled stop on the trade rout to the east. From here ships travel around the dark lands of the Svarastran subcontinent, and to the rich ports of Tengoku and Vedij. Being such a prominent crossroads, and having been established by a far older culture than the Imperials, the city is composed of a smorgasboard of peoples from far places practicing all manner of religion and customs. Still, the Imperial presence keeps the city organized, and hence quite a cosmopolitan place. As much as any city of the age. Impressive architecture is built upon the engineering of previous rulers, and the whole city has an eclectic aesthetic all it's own.

The road itself comes down from the north following the great river. River traffic parallels the movement of travellers. This is all very well patrolled, but control is tenous. Clans from the mountains in the western parts of the County are known for both their poverty, and their willingness to rectify that by raiding caravans on the road. And trade is occasionally interdicted by tribal chieftains (an out of place race seemingly related to the Vedij peoples somehow) from the eastern plains of the County coming across the river simply to extort more lands for their people from the ruling powers. This is not seen as an desireable post from the point of view of Imperial Officers who are posted in some parts. They see the local rulers as corrupt, and their militia as ineffectual, which leaves them in a tough spot guarding Imperial trade.

The region does have some wealth producing industries having recently begun to make it's own silk (not the quality of that from the east, but an acceptable substitute to most Westerners), and being the source of certain rare forms of incense. Trade in the form of short runs to Tez'Hamun for drugs are also commonplace, though dangerous.

Also a trade in stolen Numerian religious artifacts flows across the border in the mountains near the great Numerian cliff city of Jamar. Relations with Numeria are always tense, with the rulers on both sides having an intense animopsity for each other, and this theft only makes things worse. The Numerians realize the importance of the province to the Imperials, however, and have not attacked not wanting to wake that enemy. And the Count does not attack for fear that his own poulace would rise against him in portions of the County. So an uneasy truce exists for now.

The Count owes fealty only to the High Baron in the Imperial East Barony. And relations are fairly good as the South Count sends much wealth to help the High Baron with building his defnse works against possible Marluk agression. Also, a few years back, the South Count bestowed Ardanast an important city on the Imperial road at the far north end of the road in the province to the High Baron in an attempt to gain favor (which resulted in a diplomatic marriage).

Relations with the Southeast County are strained, however, relating to problems with the tribal chieftians that occupy both provinces, and their continual pressure for space.

Mike

[Morfedel]

Just a thought I wanted to ask, after having read about Taveruun from the MRB.

You this guy travelling through Infidel lands, and blends of customs, etc. But remember, Taveruun was also described as heavily influenced / allied to the Imperial Church; it was also described as heavily superstitious, even paranoid.

So I'm curious about your thoughts on the blending of customs, these semi=heretical monastaries, and this travelling member of Otamarluk; do you feel this might be in conflict with the overall theme of Taveruun as stands, or more like its kind of like Neopolitan Icecream, where although most of the country is that way, but various regions might not be quite so hardcore?


And if it sounds like I'm picking on you with these and other thoughts, i'm not; I'm just presenting alternate viewpoints and asking for clarifications.

James

Bumping again by means of adding info. Still waiting for people to help.


From The Journal of Brazhim ir Makhilef:

..... [various stuff deleted] ....

In his most holy name.



Mike

[Morfedel]

Speaking of questions:

Since you claimed South Taveruun, you have some really interesting things to consider.

First, there is Numeria: As I noted earlier, Numeria is desperately fighting off Dardanet AND Taveruun in holding their bordering river; this means that there is definite military potential there.

and not just with Numeria, but possible clashes with Dardanet forces.

But there's more; along with the more direct province to Dardanet, this could form a rather interesting possibility for international politics and intrigue. How does Dardanet react to Taveruun also annexing bordering Numeria territory? Do they each just stick to their piece of the pie? Stand away from each other? Ally with each other? Clash?

And how does that effect other elements of the constantly-conflicting Dardanet society and its nearest Taveruun province? Could end up becoming a real diplomatic tangle with a lot of possibilities!

Nick, don't punish me for being overactive. Keep posting. This is good stuff.  :-)

Those statues are at the beginning of the road, IIRC. And according to my little map (have you checked it out?), only the Northern province connects to either Ixilaph or Cyrinthmeir. So I think you just laid claim to the very interesting North Imperial province.

Here are some quesitons to answer about that land.

What is it called both as an official fiefdom, and as a place that existed since before the Imperials came and left? What is the title of the feudal lord? He's a Highlord, according to the book, and that's probably traditional, but I think that they'd all also be duchies, baronies, etc. I made an unorthodox decision intentionally by making the most important lord a Baron. This happened historically, however, as in the case of the Barony of Saxony.

Who does the Highlord owe fealty to? What are relations like with it's bordering provinces of NW Taveruun, and NE Taveruun? What about with the other countries it borders, Cyrinthmier, Ixaliph, and Ottamarluk (with which it's border extends south to the river)? Do the rulers of the region have any political objectives of their own? Any traditional territorial rivalries that threaten to break out again?

Geography? What of that river? I believe that this region is supposed to be mountainous, with a range and pass mentioned in the book (the map certainly looks it).

Who are the local people, all Taveru (you'll note that's what I've named the major indiginous culture; sound right to you?)? Or are there other ethnicities and/or cultural groups in the area? What are local customs like for these groups? Religions (you've already touched on that which is very cool)?

What's the economy like here? What local commodities are produced, and what's imported and exported? How brisk is trade, and what forms does it most often take in terms of transportation? Has preparations against the Marluks made the people poor? How prosperous are they when they're not under threat of invasion? What is their military like? Well developed, or lacking?

Major cities? Other cultural geography? What sort of subsistence patters do the people have, and what effects does this have on what habitation patterns are like? Technological variances? Subcultural structures?


Just some ideas. If others want to pick up other territories, there's still 5 left totally unclaimed. East, of course is the biggie, and probably has the most threat from Ottamarluk (I'd think that they'd want to take Longstone as a site to stage from). Southeast has the border with the mysterious land of Savastra. The Northeast borders Helena. The Southwest has the border with the warring state of Dardanet. (Brian indicated an interest in the naval affairs of the West province).

That last one is interesting. Under the listing for Ottamarluk, IIRC, it says that they've invaded Dardanet in the past. It's possible that they do this by seaborne invasion, but what makes most sense to me is that they just march across Taveruun to get there. This would not be without historical prescident as I've discussed before.

I've only detailed one-eighth of Taveruun. Still a lot of work to be done.

Mike

[Morfedel]

Diplomancers. Great stuff, heh.

I wanted to bring a discussion about Sorcerers up and front. Do you think that it would be natural for them to form any kind of Guild, per se? Or even organize at all?

After all, there is only one Sorcerer per 10,000 people, and that does not necessarily mean that they will even be Nobles - I get the distinct impression Magery is by birth, not training, in terms of potential (hence the name gifted), and therefore their being nobles and gifted, with one oer 10k people, exceptionally unlikely.

Also note, that with such rarity, I would also think their banding together like that may be unlikely. Here we are, with men and women of incredible rarity and earthshaking power. Each with goals of their own, and as rare as a 7th moon. Perhaps they might form some form of, oh, light contact, alliance kind of thing - I am thinking somewhat like the Order of Hermes from Ars Magica, where they were loose bands with rules, but often in great conflict - but I'd tend to think that their rarity would end up making them a bunch of loners, in effect, with the exception of the lightest, cautious, and most tenuous of contacts - since every sorcerer never knows what to expect from another sorcerer, whose powers might easily meet, or exceed, your own.

Just some thoughts for your consideration.

I"m not being humble, I thought you'd do a good job. I'd be a good choice as well, I think (hey, I'm here constantly). Heck, Gary's no slouch either. We're all probably well qualified for the job. We just need to pick somehow.

Gary, you want to call it?

Not really :) but for the sake of progress, Mike you are by far the more prolific member of our little group in terms of posts. I say that you get the editors spot. No offense Nick.

My little map probably would serve our purposes in the short run.

Agreed

The biggest problem with it in terms of your material, Nick, is that you talk about all sorts of influences from Helena. And on my map, they don't even border. In fact, given that the North is mountainous, I don't see them sending all that muuch trade through it, unless to get to Ix or the inland sea. OTOH, they are close, and it could just be a matter of interperetation.

Most trade would come into the Imperial West County via ship or along a coastal trade route. Of course there may be smuggler's who would use secret routes through the mountains to avoid paying taxes

Gary, more cool stuff. Question. How did the East Wall get built? It seems to be on par with the great wall of china. Probably not nearly as long, but on the same scale of magnitude. And it's amazing what it took to build that thing. How did a feudal society accomplish it? Was there any magic involved? Where does it stand in relation to the river, and the river valley.

Thanks Mike. I based the wall on Hadrian's Wall in Northern England rather than the Great Wall of China. The Roman's built the wall in AD 122 and I tend to associate the Old Xanarian Empire with the Roman Empire. The East Wall would be longer than Hadrian's Wall by a factor of 10 or slightly more (I calculate the border with Otamarluk to be approx.750 miles long) But given the size of the Old Xanarian Empire I do not feel that the scale of the wall stretches the imagination too much.

Speaking of which, what's the political control of the river look like? Interestingly, while small rivers often form borders, big ones do not in RL. This is because they, and the land on both sides are too valuable to share. Here we have a case where a big river is the border. What's travel on it like, and control of the banks like?

I picture the wall being some way back from the flood plain of the river for practical reasons. This leaves narrow strip of Galadon land populated perhaps by a native Taveruu people I have yet to detail. Note like Hadrian's wall the actual border may, at certain times, extend beyond the wall and river into the fertile lands on the eastern bank and when Otamarluk is in the ascendancy the wall may itself define the border. The river in terms of communication is for the Galadon province even more important than the Imperial road. Trade along the river to the Saphire Bay would be vitally important to the financial well being of the county.

Is Diplomancy something you just made up, or does it reference something I'm forgetting? You also mention that Rashid is potentially a Sorcerer. This is fine if it's about all the Sorcerers you intend to add. Rarity seems to be the normal assumption in TROS, and I don't think we want to add too many. It's especially important to leave room for GMs to add their own when neccessary. It is cool, however, to list any that would be well-known, and/or suspected by the populace of Sorcery.

No Diplomancy is purely my own play on words. I utterly agree that magic and magician's are rare. I see the Diplomancers as a small group of Gifted nobles, no more than one or two per country. They will form part of my own campaign and i wanted to introduce nothing more than a few story hooks. BTW I don't see Rashid as a sorcerer at all, merely that he is suspected of it. I will leave his exact methods up to each GM's interpretation

[Morfedel]

This is the Night of a Thousand Posts, apparently. :)

Last question to our Holder of the Eastern Barrier: are you sure you want to make it the Wall of Hadrian and not The Great Wall of China? I think the latter would be cooler, and far more effective, in warding off Otamarluks, whom I get the impression might not be quite up to speed on sieging massive fortifications (although perhaps thats just me).

It would make for an interesting setting. Here Taveruun is building this great wall, which could create a nigh-unassailable barrier, and forcing the Otamarluks to act before it is complete (remember, the MRB says its ALMOST complete, not done yet, heh).

Thats about it. I hope you all don't mind my comments and questions and such above. I think I have a clear view of what I want to do with the SouthEast province bordering Svarastra, but I'll wait to hear your responses so I can get a some clear responses, as I want to make sure my own province fits in nicely....

[Gary_Bingham]

This is the Night of a Thousand Posts, apparently. :)

Welcome to the party Morfedel. I don't know where to start with all your questions. Is there anything you don't dispute ;)

Last question to our Holder of the Eastern Barrier: are you sure you want to make it the Wall of Hadrian and not The Great Wall of China? I think the latter would be cooler, and far more effective, in warding off Otamarluks, whom I get the impression might not be quite up to speed on sieging massive fortifications (although perhaps thats just me).

It's a question of scale I suppose. The Great Wall of China is 6000 miles long and took a 1000 years to construct, Hadrian's wall on the other hand is 75 miles long and took 6 years to complete. Since the country of Taveruun is a relatively young country (this is where Nick and I may differ in opinion) having been formed around the time of the first crusade to retake the Shard (C. 1000 weyr) that leave only 3 centuries up until the Fall of the Old Xanarian Empire. Not enough time to build a wall to the scale of the Great wall of China. But certainly long enough to build a wall effectively 10 times the length to Hadrian's wall.

It would make for an interesting setting. Here Taveruun is building this great wall, which could create a nigh-unassailable barrier, and forcing the Otamarluks to act before it is complete (remember, the MRB says its ALMOST complete, not done yet, heh).

Ask yourself why build a wall in the first place. Even the great Wall was not unassailable barrier. Even a castle wall can be defeat with ladder if no-one is around to push the ladder off. It would take thousands of men to man the Wall(The Roman's garisoned the wall with a minimum of 8 men per milecastle) With only 8 men per mile that is 6000 men. That's 1 man to hold 220 yards of wall. Seen in this light, a defensive wall of this magnitude is an effective way to spread out your forces so thin that a sizeable army could punch through at will.

The purpose of these walls is to 1) mark the extent of territory(to say "this far and no further"), 2) to impress (to say "if we can build a wall like this with our bare hands, think what are swords can do to your internal organs") 3) to monitor traffic , goods and animals, crossing the frontier, and 4) most importantly I my opinion, as a line of communication allowing many troops to travel along the border swiftly to counter any incursion. For this reason I have described the wall as a fortified road

Thats about it. I hope you all don't mind my comments and questions and such above. I think I have a clear view of what I want to do with the SouthEast province bordering Svarastra, but I'll wait to hear your responses so I can get a some clear responses, as I want to make sure my own province fits in nicely....

and

There is a country there, known as Svarastra, and according to my map, it has a border in common with Taveruun. It is very rich, almost seeping in opulence. And their military is mainly for show. While a full scale invasion would be unrealistic, again because of the defense against Otamarluk, they could not begin a full scale invasion, but there would be an opportunity to take resources from Svarastra

Note when you are thinking about Svarastra don't automatically consider all that wealth as an opportunity to expand or dominate. Remember that Taveruun has more resources than it can realistically exploit within it's borders. I suggest that what taveruun would be seeking from Svarastra is not another enemy, another border to defend, another wall to build, but instead a friend, an ally and crucially a trading partner. Only a thought
Gary

[Morfedel]

This is the Night of a Thousand Posts, apparently. :)

Welcome to the party Morfedel. I don't know where to start with all your questions. Is there anything you don't dispute ;)

There is a lot I don't dispute. And even those things I mention I don't necesarrily dispute either. In those cases, I'm presenting alternate ways of looking at things.

It would make for an interesting setting. Here Taveruun is building this great wall, which could create a nigh-unassailable barrier, and forcing the Otamarluks to act before it is complete (remember, the MRB says its ALMOST complete, not done yet, heh).

Ask yourself why build a wall in the first place. Even the great Wall was not unassailable barrier. Even a castle wall can be defeat with ladder if no-one is around to push the ladder off. It would take thousands of men to man the Wall(The Roman's garisoned the wall with a minimum of 8 men per milecastle) With only 8 men per mile that is 6000 men. That's 1 man to hold 220 yards of wall. Seen in this light, a defensive wall of this magnitude is an effective way to spread out your forces so thin that a sizeable army could punch through at will.

The purpose of these walls is to 1) mark the extent of territory(to say "this far and no further"), 2) to impress (to say "if we can build a wall like this with our bare hands, think what are swords can do to your internal organs") 3) to monitor traffic , goods and animals, crossing the frontier, and 4) most importantly I my opinion, as a line of communication allowing many troops to travel along the border swiftly to counter any incursion. For this reason I have described the wall as a fortified road

Are you sure? I have no idea how the Hadrian wall or the Great Wall was used in terms of actual operation, but seeing as how they are in desperate defense against Otamarluk, I find it a bit hard to believe that the wall is serving little more than impressive decoration - but let's address that last point.

Imagine if you had a few men along each mile of the road, armed with signal fires; and what if the wall was topped on the outter side with pikes and spikes, spears and sharp pointy things to make getting over a bit difficult and slow things down.

And recall that the entire border has to be defended ANYWAY, so Taveruun is going to have their military across the entire border, one way or the other. That is the general reality of things: They have no idea where an assault from Otamarluk would hit, so they have to be prepared everywhere; in reality, a massed assault from Otamarluk would most likely punch deep into Taveruun in one area, while the "flanking" fortresses learn about it and, in turn swing around to try and take Otamarluk's army in their own flanks as they punch deeper into Taveruun territory.

A wall, especially one mounted with sharp pointy things to make that intial scale-over more difficult, would at least slow the army down, while signal fires and such were lit all along the wall, allowing the rest of the Taveruun's army to react much more quickly, even using the road-wall, as you say, to hurry to the point of incursion.

The point I'm making is, I find it difficult to believe its merely a tool for intimidation, although using it as a road to rush an army to an incursion point works for me.

Also, there is the point that if you have a fortress nearby, you only need to hold the wall long enough for the rest of a garrison to get there. When you are defending a 30-foot tall wall, you can afford to be outnumberd - thats what makes sieges so difficult.

Note when you are thinking about Svarastra don't automatically consider all that wealth as an opportunity to expand or dominate. Remember that Taveruun has more resources than it can realistically exploit within it's borders. I suggest that what taveruun would be seeking from Svarastra is not another enemy, another border to defend, another wall to build, but instead a friend, an ally and crucially a trading partner. Only a thought
Gary

But does it work that way?

I'm not so convinced. I've read the Taveruun section many times and, frankly, I do not get the impression that they have more resources than they can realistically exploit by a far cry whatsoever. The big thing is they are having massive trouble keeping their army supplied with food and weapons... and their people are hard working folk; they arent selling much of anything to other countries, in their fight to keep things going.

I'd suggest reading the Taveruun section again. Maybe I missed something, so after making this post, I will too; but I did not get the impression they simply had untapped resources.

However, as for making enemies with Svarastra... there are several reasons I think you can get away with it just fine.

The first is a machiavellian approach which I won't tell you just now :)  I'll keep it secret for the time being.

The second is... well, frankly, as I said, Svarastra has this habit of buying themselves out of trouble! Heck, if you put just a small amount of pressure on them, you might be able to eck a bit of tribute out of them.

The third is... what Taveruun needs right now is food, weapons, and other items to keep their army going, and perhaps an influx of gold and other items to help with their economy. They don't need massive territories that they can't hold when Otamarluk is pressing them; what would probably be better is quiet, nighttime raids against, say, granaries and farms, taking wagonloads of foodstuffs from bordertowns.

(ok, reading that last paragraph, that now looks a bit silly; i'm not so sure stealing and carting back foodstuffs is a realistic thing to do; it seems reasonable when I first thought it up, but now... :)  )

Anyway. Just some thoughts.

[Morfedel]

sorry, I had another thing to add concerning Diplomancers (neat name btw):

Remember this region is very suspicious, superstitious, and paranoid. And, they are firmly entrenched in the Imperial Church.

And remember THEIR attitude on sorcerers? Would a guild of sorcerers be realistic in society described as being paranoid and distrustful? And would it be realistic to have one entrenched in a society so dedicatd to the Imperial Church?

If so, it would have to be a secret society of the highest order; an Inquisition could find them out, and have serious personal consequences, to be sure.

Just wanted to add this to my other thoughts below. In my opinion, you would find it difficult to find societies of Sorcerers anywhere, because they are so rare; a bit more possible in societies that accept them, which is rare, with Gelure being the glaring exception, and perhaps a couple of countries with "pagan" beliefs....

Diplomancers. Great stuff, heh.

I wanted to bring a discussion about Sorcerers up and front. Do you think that it would be natural for them to form any kind of Guild, per se? Or even organize at all?

After all, there is only one Sorcerer per 10,000 people, and that does not necessarily mean that they will even be Nobles - I get the distinct impression Magery is by birth, not training, in terms of potential (hence the name gifted), and therefore their being nobles and gifted, with one oer 10k people, exceptionally unlikely.

Also note, that with such rarity, I would also think their banding together like that may be unlikely. Here we are, with men and women of incredible rarity and earthshaking power. Each with goals of their own, and as rare as a 7th moon. Perhaps they might form some form of, oh, light contact, alliance kind of thing - I am thinking somewhat like the Order of Hermes from Ars Magica, where they were loose bands with rules, but often in great conflict - but I'd tend to think that their rarity would end up making them a bunch of loners, in effect, with the exception of the lightest, cautious, and most tenuous of contacts - since every sorcerer never knows what to expect from another sorcerer, whose powers might easily meet, or exceed, your own.

Just some thoughts for your consideration.

I"m not being humble, I thought you'd do a good job. I'd be a good choice as well, I think (hey, I'm here constantly). Heck, Gary's no slouch either. We're all probably well qualified for the job. We just need to pick somehow.

Gary, you want to call it?

Not really :) but for the sake of progress, Mike you are by far the more prolific member of our little group in terms of posts. I say that you get the editors spot. No offense Nick.

My little map probably would serve our purposes in the short run.

Agreed

The biggest problem with it in terms of your material, Nick, is that you talk about all sorts of influences from Helena. And on my map, they don't even border. In fact, given that the North is mountainous, I don't see them sending all that muuch trade through it, unless to get to Ix or the inland sea. OTOH, they are close, and it could just be a matter of interperetation.

Most trade would come into the Imperial West County via ship or along a coastal trade route. Of course there may be smuggler's who would use secret routes through the mountains to avoid paying taxes

Gary, more cool stuff. Question. How did the East Wall get built? It seems to be on par with the great wall of china. Probably not nearly as long, but on the same scale of magnitude. And it's amazing what it took to build that thing. How did a feudal society accomplish it? Was there any magic involved? Where does it stand in relation to the river, and the river valley.

Thanks Mike. I based the wall on Hadrian's Wall in Northern England rather than the Great Wall of China. The Roman's built the wall in AD 122 and I tend to associate the Old Xanarian Empire with the Roman Empire. The East Wall would be longer than Hadrian's Wall by a factor of 10 or slightly more (I calculate the border with Otamarluk to be approx.750 miles long) But given the size of the Old Xanarian Empire I do not feel that the scale of the wall stretches the imagination too much.

Speaking of which, what's the political control of the river look like? Interestingly, while small rivers often form borders, big ones do not in RL. This is because they, and the land on both sides are too valuable to share. Here we have a case where a big river is the border. What's travel on it like, and control of the banks like?

I picture the wall being some way back from the flood plain of the river for practical reasons. This leaves narrow strip of Galadon land populated perhaps by a native Taveruu people I have yet to detail. Note like Hadrian's wall the actual border may, at certain times, extend beyond the wall and river into the fertile lands on the eastern bank and when Otamarluk is in the ascendancy the wall may itself define the border. The river in terms of communication is for the Galadon province even more important than the Imperial road. Trade along the river to the Saphire Bay would be vitally important to the financial well being of the county.

Is Diplomancy something you just made up, or does it reference something I'm forgetting? You also mention that Rashid is potentially a Sorcerer. This is fine if it's about all the Sorcerers you intend to add. Rarity seems to be the normal assumption in TROS, and I don't think we want to add too many. It's especially important to leave room for GMs to add their own when neccessary. It is cool, however, to list any that would be well-known, and/or suspected by the populace of Sorcery.

No Diplomancy is purely my own play on words. I utterly agree that magic and magician's are rare. I see the Diplomancers as a small group of Gifted nobles, no more than one or two per country. They will form part of my own campaign and i wanted to introduce nothing more than a few story hooks. BTW I don't see Rashid as a sorcerer at all, merely that he is suspected of it. I will leave his exact methods up to each GM's interpretation

[Nick the Nevermet]

A few days ago, Mike & I were talking about making a 'big picture thread' so this one could stay focused on the provinces.  My compter crashed yesterday as I was sending it.  frustrated, I needed to sleep before trying to write it again.  I mention this because Morfedel, you seem to be making the observation that such a topic is necessary.  Just wanted to let you know you're not the only one noticing this. :)

[Morfedel]

Ok, thanks! :)