Taveruun

[Darren Hill]

It's a question of scale I suppose. The Great Wall of China is 6000 miles long and took a 1000 years to construct, Hadrian's wall on the other hand is 75 miles long and took 6 years to complete.

Actually, there were three Great Walls of China. The first one was mostly built within the lifetime of ruler who ordered it's construction (and was left to rot afterwards), and was 'only' about 3000 miles long.
It was very simple compared to current wall - less impressive, for much of its length, han Hadrian's Wall IIRC. So such a wall is feasible for a young country. (If it has the massive manpower necessary.)

[Gary_Bingham]

550-608 WEYR:  The early expansion under the fourth moon is primarily towards Maraia.  As Taveruun is not specifically mentioned in the timeline, I will suggest that this is about when the Empire absorbs Taveruun, primarily through missionary work (that part is in the book).  Let's say Imperial authority was established by... 590 WEYR?

608-957: Increased trade with Xanarium, settlers come and help found or develop the cities of Taveruun.

Pre-957:  Taveruun has most likely always had tensions Otamarluk and the followers of the Seven Vows.

957 WEYR: The first official aid by Xanarium to aid its vassal Taveruun in its Otamarluk dealings.  Taveruun sends lobbyists far and wide telling Mainlund how evil the Seven Vows is, and how savage the people to the east can be.

1000 WEYR:  Using the millenium, Taveruun gets its wish and the Crusades begin.  

1000-1200 WEYR:  The Crusades start off as a mixed blessing and get worse from there.  At its best, the Crusades were a vast amount of military aid by a horde of roving knights.  Their behavior often caused problems, the most glaring of which was the peasant rebellion in Komas, leading to the establishment of foriegn nobles as its rulers.  At its worst, the Crusades were a time when self righteous fanatics stampeded across the landscape, trampling everything on their way to glory.  "Glory" was occasionally defined as attacking Taveruun highlords, not only the Otamarluks.

I do not believe that Taveruun existed in the form that it does in W1467 prior to the to the crusades of W1000 to W1200. And it was during these crusade that the border on the Galadonian River was formed. In essense after the Crusades ravaged Otarmaluk Taveruun was the territory that could effective be held.

Prior to the Crusades I see the land of the Taveruu as an integral part of Sultanate of Otarmaluk. Also Dardanet may have held some of the territory which would be later claimed by the Xanarian Empire and renamed Taveruun.

Perhaps spurred by a request for aid from struggling Dardanet, the First Crusades would have set up a Xanarian State or States on the coast of the land of the Taveruu, similar to the real world The Principality of Antioch, Counties of Tripoli and Edessa and the Kingdom of Jerusalem. Later crusades would have pushed back the Marmaluks to the Galadonian River. Here the Crusades failed, but Taveruun remained.

This matches with some references in the rulebook. Otarmaluk does not acknowledge Taveruun and sees it as occupied territory. Dardanet must have bordered with Otarmarluk at some point in it's history as the rulebook states that it once held back the Marmaluks from invading Mainlund. I believe there is another reference to Helena and Dardanet bordering with Otamarluk.

Guys give this some consideration, I think that this approach makes a lot of sense and creates a real foundation of conflict between the peoples of Taveruun and Otamarluk. I don't go with Taveruun are good guys, Otamarluk bad. Just two peoples with a intense hatred of each for crimes commited by their fathers.

[Nick the Nevermet]

Damn.
I'm about to go on a trip for the day, but I'll get to this tonight or in the morning.  My first thought is that you've convinced me (can only speak for myself).

[Jake Norwood]

Guys give this some consideration, I think that this approach makes a lot of sense and creates a real foundation of conflict between the peoples of Taveruun and Otamarluk. I don't go with Taveruun are good guys, Otamarluk bad. Just two peoples with a intense hatred of each for crimes commited by their fathers.

Indeed, this aproach is neccessary for all of TROS's politics and religious bonds.

Jake

[Mike Holmes]

OK, responding to various issues.

As I said in the other thread, I think Gary's timeline makes more sense for all his reasons. Looks like we have consensus on that one.

I also said my part about the wall. Can't be as big as the Great Wall, but impressve nonetheless. Better than nothing. In any case, I assume that this also means that the cities of the East are heavily fortified. But these are European style fortifications I'd suppose; meaning cruddy engineering compared to the Chinese, or even the Romans.

As I pointed out in the other thread, you only defend where the enemy army is advancing. Often that's only in one place. This remains true until the late 18th century. Even in the American Civil War it was just a case of many points of attack, and "lines" were loose to say the least. Travel is slow (no trains, even), so army movement is easy to track in general. Yo don't have to defend the entire border. Just respond to the attack.

On the subject of the Southeast, as long as you don't add too much to the book description, James, I think a bit of trouble between Svarastra is probably OK. Maybe pressuring the local lord there just over the border. OTOH, I wouldn't think that the ruler of the SE province would want the Svarastrans to go to the Marluks with a complaint about that territory. Machiavellian, sure. Lot's of overt stuff is less likely, it seems to me.

James, you have what seem to me to be rather extreme readings of a some points from the book. Where the book says that the economy is taken up by the war effort, you see it as, "Massive Trouble" keeping the army supplied. That's just as unsupported in the text. I'd agree that Taveruun isn't probably overflowing with resources, but neither do I get any sense that it's struggling. Just working hard to defend against a monster foe. They do have enough resources to build that wall, however, which is impressive given it's length, even if it's a garden fence.

On the subject of Numeria, I didn't read the troubles between Taveruun and Numeria as being as extreme as you did. More importantly, I read them as being general. That is, there are usually problems, back and forth, and the Numerians typically get the worst of it because of disorganization, and some of what Taverunn currntly holding being theirs. But at the moment, I'd just had it that there were no current hostilities for several reasons. On the Taveruun side, they have to worry about the invasion from Ottamarluk, and are halting fighting until that passes. On the Numerian side, they are waiting to see how things shake out, and focusing on the Dardanet forces. In fact, I get the sense that the Numerians are waiting like vultures to leap on the province as soon as the Marluks have damaged it at all. But in case that doesn't happen, they're waiting. Because they have this idea that the imperials will be showing up to help in Taveruun.

That last part I made a bit of a shambles of, actually. I had this half thought out idea that there would be forces from Xanarium or something coming to help out Taveruun (defense in depth; not totally implausible). But now I'm not so sure. Anyhow, yes, the river territory will be the Numerians' again just as soon as they have a good opportunity to effectively counterattack. They just aren't fighting at the moment.

Dardanet doesn't border the South, only Southwest. Things are probably different there. That Numerian city just over the border is an interesting point of contention. The way I see it, that's possibly something that Southwest might hold right now, and be the focus of the three way problems.

I do think that the military of the South is probably underdeveloped in some ways. I don't really get the sense that the Numerians are all that organized as an opponent. Did I say their military was ineffectual? I think that was a biased Marluk who said that... :-)

While there's a general mistrust of Marluks in general in Taveruun, it's not maniacal. IRL, Christian merchants traveled in the east (ever hear of Marco Polo?), and vice versa. Business is an international religion that breaks all boundaries. If you can offer someone riches, they won't care what you believe: just ask the Inquisition. This isn't probably common, but I thought it made for a neat story to have a Marluk's POV on a country neighboring his. Sure, he'll have to be careful. And as it happens he is a spy, so he's in great danger. And it's the height of arrogance for him to actually write down his account (in my mental continuation, he gets caught at the capitol). But given the potential reward of the Suul'taan, somebody would try it. Our man's just the guy who volunteered.

Also, James, you seem to believe in a level of cultural homogenaity that just could not exist. In general, it's my belief that the book only mentions the most prevalent cultures. The countries presented are way too large to realistically have only one culture. Even in small countries, there are subcultures, and minorities. This is especially true of border areas where you tend to see entire cultures develop in the form of "captured" members of the bordering culture. That is, if I take over an area, and move in, the original inhabitants will remain. Over time, they'll drift some from the original culture, picking up some of the conqueror's traditions, and creating some of their own. This is tremendously common.

Further, I see Taveruun as akin to the RW Balkan states. So it's actually probably going to end up being less culturally diverse than that area, despite my attempts at realism in the one corner. What's consistent in this culture, from the description is the religion, which I've made universal in the local area. There are just some local variations. Not unlike, that paganism that's displayed in the Robin Hood legend, juxtaposed with the Christianity.

Also, the heretics are trying to hide their heresy, knowing what might happen if they are found out. They are as remote from the seat as possible, however. If not a heresy there, then where? Heresies in orders are actually a rather common event historically as well (check out the Albigensian heresy). Heck, the Franciscans were considered heretical in some ways. Basically the church doesn't brook any thought that doesn't support it's supremacy. So I gave an example.

It's a large province, and I wanted to present the interesting parts. There's no doubt all sorts of uninteresting details that I could generate about the region, but who wants to read that? Keep in mind that, again, it's often more powerful to present the exceptions to the rules rather than examples of the rules.

Mike

[Nick the Nevermet]

Just wanted to mention my revision of Komas will be getting posted here tomorrow, my new proposal for timeline / cultural history will be going in the overview thread later tonight

[Morfedel]

OK, responding to various issues.
On the subject of the Southeast, as long as you don't add too much to the book description, James, I think a bit of trouble between Svarastra is probably OK. Maybe pressuring the local lord there just over the border. OTOH, I wouldn't think that the ruler of the SE province would want the Svarastrans to go to the Marluks with a complaint about that territory. Machiavellian, sure. Lot's of overt stuff is less likely, it seems to me.

Rather my intentions anyway, to avoid overt stuff; at least, in the beginning

James, you have what seem to me to be rather extreme readings of a some points from the book. Where the book says that the economy is taken up by the war effort, you see it as, "Massive Trouble" keeping the army supplied. That's just as unsupported in the text. I'd agree that Taveruun isn't probably overflowing with resources, but neither do I get any sense that it's struggling. Just working hard to defend against a monster foe. They do have enough resources to build that wall, however, which is impressive given it's length, even if it's a garden fence.

Let me put it another way. It says their economy is beginning to destabilize; by hearing the word "Beginning" I'm hearing the start of what could be an avalanche. Hence, my reasoning. Perhaps it sounds extreme to some, but it isn't entirely without merit: all economic collapses start somewhere.

So, perhaps saying they are in massive trouble NOW is too extreme; but their potential to be in massive trouble in the future, based on how their economy is running now, I think is a very reasonable assumption.

On the subject of Numeria, I didn't read the troubles between Taveruun and Numeria as being as extreme as you did. More importantly, I read them as being general. That is, there are usually problems, back and forth, and the Numerians typically get the worst of it because of disorganization, and some of what Taverunn currntly holding being theirs. But at the moment, I'd just had it that there were no current hostilities for several reasons. On the Taveruun side, they have to worry about the invasion from Ottamarluk, and are halting fighting until that passes. On the Numerian side, they are waiting to see how things shake out, and focusing on the Dardanet forces. In fact, I get the sense that the Numerians are waiting like vultures to leap on the province as soon as the Marluks have damaged it at all. But in case that doesn't happen, they're waiting. Because they have this idea that the imperials will be showing up to help in Taveruun.

And I get an opposing view. Again, I may have gone to an extreme here, but it does state in the book that there are currently border skirmishes as Numeria struggles to maintain control of the rivern Anazum (sp??). So, that isn't total war, I agree, but knowing how important rivers can be, and seeing how DESPITE the fact that Taveruun is facing down Otamarluk, they are STILL the aggressor (and make no bones about it, in this case the Taveruun ARE the aggressor), this speaks something to me.

Granted, this isn't an invasion, but border skirmishes for control of valuable territory; nonetheless, when the Taveru are working towards control of an area during an upcoming face-off with the Otamarluk, there must be a reason for it.

I surmize that the land is valuable; rivers, in general, were often the lifeblood of some civilizations, but regardless.

Anyway, you may be right, I may have blown it a bit out of proportions, but I feel that treatment of it during initial discussions of the Southern provinces ignored this fact completely, as I saw not a single mention of it, and to me these skirmishes are of more importance than has been granted them thus far.

That last part I made a bit of a shambles of, actually. I had this half thought out idea that there would be forces from Xanarium or something coming to help out Taveruun (defense in depth; not totally implausible). But now I'm not so sure. Anyhow, yes, the river territory will be the Numerians' again just as soon as they have a good opportunity to effectively counterattack. They just aren't fighting at the moment.

Actually, according to the text, the river is theirs NOW, and they are trying to keep from losing control. But that's arguing semantics. Either way, the border skirmishes currently going on may not be serious to the Taveruun, but reading the text about it in Numeria, the wording implies to me that to the Numerians, its a big deal, and they intend on fighting tooth and nail for it.

I may be wrong, but go read the text on numeria. Notice, under politics and military it says that current border skirmishes are going on, and that N Numeria is "struggling to maintain control of the river..."  This tells me that there is a lot going on now, in small scale, and about to pick up.

Dardanet doesn't border the South, only Southwest. Things are probably different there. That Numerian city just over the border is an interesting point of contention. The way I see it, that's possibly something that Southwest might hold right now, and be the focus of the three way problems.

Now, that is an interesting idea....

While there's a general mistrust of Marluks in general in Taveruun, it's not maniacal. IRL, Christian merchants traveled in the east (ever hear of Marco Polo?), and vice versa. Business is an international religion that breaks all boundaries. If you can offer someone riches, they won't care what you believe: just ask the Inquisition. This isn't probably common, but I thought it made for a neat story to have a Marluk's POV on a country neighboring his. Sure, he'll have to be careful. And as it happens he is a spy, so he's in great danger. And it's the height of arrogance for him to actually write down his account (in my mental continuation, he gets caught at the capitol). But given the potential reward of the Suul'taan, somebody would try it. Our man's just the guy who volunteered.

Here I must disagree vehemently. I'll go into it in detail a bit below, as I have to reply to something else that links in; but the culture is described as paranoid, and they are at war with Otamarluk. Think of how people in our modern USA treated Japanese during World War 2; and we are a more "advanced", cosmopolitan culture. Somehow, I really doubt that a Marluk is going to be travelling through Taveru unless its incognito, hiding himself at all times.

Also, James, you seem to believe in a level of cultural homogenaity that just could not exist.

How's that? I will be the first one to grant that I am no expert in history and sociology, but I have studied a tiny bit, and I do know a few things: some cultures are extremely intolerant of non-core ways, and of outsiders. I get the impression that Taveru follows that.

But, and here I'm going to make a point of it: When you describe a culture overall in a particular way, it seems to me that should be the norm; and frankly, from what I read of the ideas henceforth, I saw very little of that in any of them.

I may be risking sounding like an ass, and I do not want to do that, but it seemed the visions of the provinces being written were steering moderately clear and away from some of the precepts presented in the text. I understand deviations, but there were almost no mention of certain textual elements referred to in the book, and that was beginning to leave me with some concern, that the vision and the work here were heading in two seperate directions.

In general, it's my belief that the book only mentions the most prevalent cultures. The countries presented are way too large to realistically have only one culture. Even in small countries, there are subcultures, and minorities. This is especially true of border areas where you tend to see entire cultures develop in the form of "captured" members of the bordering culture. That is, if I take over an area, and move in, the original inhabitants will remain. Over time, they'll drift some from the original culture, picking up some of the conqueror's traditions, and creating some of their own. This is tremendously common.

Granted, and this I can understand. I guess what I'm saying is I was seeing too much of the exceptions, and not enough of the norms. I saw no mention of any concerns, paranoias, etc, as mentioned in the book, in any of the provincial descriptions we were getting; if the country in general is described as being paranoid, enough so that PCs from there get social penalties, then the provinces should be having elements of that, and frankly, there were only the rarest mentions of these in all of the provinces, to my failing memory.

Further, I see Taveruun as akin to the RW Balkan states. So it's actually probably going to end up being less culturally diverse than that area, despite my attempts at realism in the one corner. What's consistent in this culture, from the description is the religion, which I've made universal in the local area. There are just some local variations. Not unlike, that paganism that's displayed in the Robin Hood legend, juxtaposed with the Christianity.

And here I show my ignorance, in not knowing much about the balkan states.

Also, the heretics are trying to hide their heresy, knowing what might happen if they are found out. They are as remote from the seat as possible, however. If not a heresy there, then where? Heresies in orders are actually a rather common event historically as well (check out the Albigensian heresy). Heck, the Franciscans were considered heretical in some ways. Basically the church doesn't brook any thought that doesn't support it's supremacy. So I gave an example.

Point conceded.

It's a large province, and I wanted to present the interesting parts. There's no doubt all sorts of uninteresting details that I could generate about the region, but who wants to read that? Keep in mind that, again, it's often more powerful to present the exceptions to the rules rather than examples of the rules.

Oh, I see; those were the exceptions, not the rules. That makes a bit of a difference....

I think I'd have liked to have seen the entire pot mixed in, for my view.

Allow me to apologize. I'm not here to challenge the rest of you. You all have some great ideas. My views were a little different - and I tend towards a bit of rules lawyerishness at times. If I read it in the book, I darned well expect to see it !!!!

My views are apparently different from the rest of yours. As I do not want to be a thorn in your sides, and  as my vision is different from yours, I will withdraw and let you find someone else a bit more harmonious in finishing this work.

[Mike Holmes]

First, interperetations of the text will vary. For example, when you read "currently" you interpereted "right as the game starts", wheras I read "within the last year" as opposed to "historically" or something that would indicate longer ago. That is, millitary actions do not usually have well defined starts and stops, even today, much less in these sorts of cultures. I mean, by your interperetation, does that mean that if the characters go to the border, that the first thing they'll see is people fighting because there are "currently" border skirmishes? That's a relative term, and subject to considerable interperetation.

I didn't ignore it. I, in fact, pointed out how just at the moment that play starts, there's a ceasefire in these activities that's caused by the potential problems caused by the Marluk invasion. You seem to think that I've put much less thought into this than I have. I did read each bordering nation closely. You'll note that it was this reading of the Numerians, for example that allowed my to make my guesses as to where the river in question lies. You'll note that by my assessment the river ceases to exist where it meets the Cathedral forming another (just made that part up on the spot). So please don't ask me to read it again. I have read it again, actually, and I come to the same conclusions.

You seem, in these cases, to think that you have the "right" interperetation. I'm sorry, but this is a collaborative effort, and you are going to have to accept people's interperetations. Even I, as the continutity editor, am not going to question a person on something that nebulous. I'll ask Gary how the wall got built if it's like the Great Wall because it seems to have scale issues that extend beyond the borders of his country. But if you want to have a little conflict with Svarastra in your territory, I'm not going to question it; that's at the level where it's your call.

Basically, each of us has to have room to do what we want to do within reason. You have presented your arguments, and I've presented mine. I don't think that I've used any great illogic (if I have, then please correct me). So if it's just a matter of interpretation, then I think you'll have to allow my ideas to stand.

On another note, I think we've decided (and if I'm wrong here, guys, tell me), that we're not going to do any Metaplot. That is, it's fine to suggest to the GM that if he wants to do so, that he can have an economic collapse. But for the most part, I think the idea is to describe things more or less at a point in time, and let individual GMs go from there. In fact, I'd say that it ought to be a principle that we make nothing absolutely sure in terms of future events. If the GM has a need for the Marlukes to delay their attack, or even to change their minds and not come at all, that should be as plausible as the GM can work it form current details.

Do you see the angle I'm talking about? The supplement ought to be a tool to add material to the GMs game, not direct play in action in any way.  

On the subject of norms, Nick put out that thing on Taveruu culture, which I expect represents the norms of perhaps half or more of the people of the country. I was expecting that more overarching essays on the country as a whole would cover the commonalities. Stuff like we're working out in the other thread.

The Balkans are the countries that formerly made up Yugoslavia, and some of the surrounding states. There are quite a few, and their borders have changed more times in the last 3000 years than anyone can count. In today's country of Croatia, just one of these countries, for instance, there are the following ethnicities:
Croat 78.1%, Serb 12.2%, Bosniak 0.9%, Hungarian 0.5%, Slovene 0.5%, Czech 0.4%, Albanian 0.3%, Montenegrin 0.3%, Roma 0.2%, others 6.6%
Think of the Serbs as the Maruzin in this context, and the Hotars as the Bosniaks. I'm still short a few cultures by this comparison. It would imply that each of the provinces should have it's own culture. Even if the Taveru are intolerant (and I think again that you're reading in), that doesn't mean these cultures won't exist together. None of the above RL cultures can stand the other. But people don't want to leave their homes just because they aren't liked by the village down the road. Most days it doesn't matter.

During the war of Spanish Succession in which the Dutch broke from Spain, do you know who provided Spain with most of it's arms? The Dutch. Money is a hard master, and will cause people to do things that they otherwise wouldn't do. Merchants always have had a special immunity from prejudices. Not to say that people won't look down on such a person, but they'll tolerate them despite it. Yes, even during war (not that the Marluks have invaded, yet, anyhow: from the story, the character intends to be long gone into Numeria before then).

Now, might my traveling character be subject to some random "'hate crime"? Sure, but they're traveling in a group and watching each other's backs. So I think it's perfectly plausible. I can think of a literary example. Othello was a moor. A North African Muslim merchant living in Italy around the times of the Crusades. Was Shakespeare crazy?

Again, I'm not presenting it as common, but rather as uncommon. Yes it's dangerous. But people will do anything for money.

Mike

[Morfedel]

So please don't ask me to read it again. I have read it again, actually, and I come to the same conclusions.

You seem, in these cases, to think that you have the "right" interperetation.

If you have a particular perception of something, then you will believe you are correct; just as I will for mine. I'm not, however, trying to run around saying *I* am right and you are not, though, and my regrets if its coming off that way.

I'm sorry, but this is a collaborative effort, and you are going to have to accept people's interperetations.

Meaning I'd get one as well, correct?

Even I, as the continutity editor, am not going to question a person on something that nebulous. I'll ask Gary how the wall got built if it's like the Great Wall because it seems to have scale issues that extend beyond the borders of his country. But if you want to have a little conflict with Svarastra in your territory, I'm not going to question it; that's at the level where it's your call.

True, but when I made the suggestion, others chimed in questioning the veracity of that consideration. I'm merely doing the same, and I felt it was fine for them to chime in.

I had not thought that merely presenting my view on things would have become tantamount to my claiming I am right and everyone else is wrong. Perhaps it was in my presentation, not that it matters. I rescind my comments.

[Gary_Bingham]

Military of Galadon
Galadon Baronial Guard
Like all the feudal highlords Baron Pellori maintains a personal guard for the defense of Castle Longstone and surroundings. The Baronial Guard is a elite regiment made of mostly un-landed nobles and freemen, highly trained in the use of polearm and crossbow. Each guard is expected to purchase his own armour and weaponry and maintain such to a very high standard. Whilst the majority of the regiment is based in Castle Longstone, a number of small units are rotated around the fortress of Galadon to serve as an example to the rest of the military.

Eastguard Legions
The legions are a remnant of the Imperial legions that once protected Taveruun. Funded by the Baron of Galadon and the levy imposed on the other highlords, the Eastguard legion are based on the Eastern Wall. The legions are made up professional solders trained in the use of longsword and bow, and are well versed in defensive tactics. Though not as disciplined as the Baronial Guard the Eastguard Legions are veterans of Marmaluk raids, and are fiercely proud of the wall and what it represents to Taveruun.

Orders of Knighthood
The two largest orders of knighthood are the Sons of the Righteous War and the Holy Knights of the Shard. The Sons are closely aligned with the Church of the Three-In-One and as such are an extension of the Churches power within Taveruun. The Shard Knights are a smaller but still numerous order with looser ties to the Church. Both orders consider it their duty to protect the many Cathedrals and monasteries in the Region and are not bound to any one county. The Church places both nominally under the control of the Baron, and they form an important element in the defenses of the county.

The Sons and the Shard Knights maintain a large contingent of mounted knights though the Sons favor heavy armor whilst the Shard Knights field mobile troop with lighter protection. The mounted knights are trained in the use lance and saber, and are supported by men-at-arms with crossbows.  

Town Watch and Militia
Baron Pellori is unable to support a large standing army and so to supplement the regular forces under his command each local landowner is responsible for the mobilization of town watches and formation of militia units within his land. Though the by-laws vary from land hold to land hold, the norm is that each man over the age of 14 and each unwed-woman over the age of 16 must train one day a week in the use of pole-arm or sword and bow up to the age of 30. On the whole the discipline in the Militia’s is very poor, the Town watches slightly more so, and training and leadership is often wanting.

Mercenaries
In lieu of direct support many nations have sent mercenaries to aid in Taveruun’s defense. The Baron views this a mixed blessing as the mercenaries require significant resources to police and control. Given the massed armies of the Sultanate across the Galadonian River Alfrex tolerates them knowing that he will need every sword available when the counter-crusade comes.

[Mike Holmes]

I think I over-reacted. Apollogies if you were offended.

Here's the problem. The way I see it, each of us basically has a free reign to do what we want in our own parts of the country. That said, it all has to gel, so there is a responsibility to do it well, and ensure that nothing contradicts from one are to the next, or with the overall notes. So the freedom isn't complete b any means.

Now, in the name of working together, there's no reason that you can't help the other people by making suggestions or helping with constructive criticism. That's fine. But we aren't making each of these areas by committee. You are certainly entitled to your opinions, and to the extent that entries affect the overall consistency, you are entitled to point out errors so that they can be worked out.

But where it's a matter of judgement, where it's not pretty clear that there's an error, we have to come down in support of the person doing the writing. Or this will never get done. That will be my policy.

The way I see my job as editor is to try to work so that each contributor's section works as close to it's original format as possible. Not to realign it at all to my vision or anyone else's, but simply to ensure that what's written doesn't conflict with anything else that's written.

Now, you and I, James, seem to have a difference of opinion on how much lattitude each word in the TROS book seems to give in terms of consistency. And that's a fine subject to debate I suppose. But it's specifically my job to decide when a conflict needs to be resolved, and when it's not a conflict.

Now, in terms of my own area, I have a conflict of interest. I can't arbitarily rule that my stuff is OK in terms of overall consistency, because then I'd be placing my own interests before those of the project as a whole. So what needs to happen is for you guys to decide if what I've got violates overall consistency. The easiest way is for someone to support James's claims. That is, if any two of you agree that something of mine is improper, I'll edit it into compliance. (The issues at hand are the militarism of the province, and the plausiblity of a Marluk merchant traveling in the East and South provinces, if I have it correctly).

Is that fair?

So here's the process I envision for commenting:
1. Make all the suggestions you like to other players, and help them improve their stuff, it you like.
2. Feel free to accept or ignore any suggestions from others as regards your area. This can all be quite informal as it has been so far.
3. If you feel that there's a real continuity/logic problem that's not being addressed, bring it to me. I'll see what I can do about fixing it. That doesn't mean I'll side with any particular party, just that I'll try to work with all parties to see how we can co-operate to ensure that the product makes sense. We should take these as opportunities to better the product (And where it applies to my writing, as above, two people bringing a problem to me will trigger off the same sort of arbitration on the subject.)

Is that all sensible?

Now, the matter of the economy is a general one, and needs to be considered in a different light. As it applies to all areas, a more stringent requirement has to apply in looking at details created. Basically I'll have to consider most every claim brought up fairly seriously. James has brought up the claim that there's textual evidence that the economy is in less than perfect shape, and that this implies certain things. I've argued against making too much of this comment.

The best way to look at this is to see if we can come up with some sort of description that satisfies all parties. In fact, what one person considers a bad economy might satisfy the player who thinks it's not so bad. Anyhow, James, could you further describe what effects you think are happening to the economy in specific terms? We can work from there to find a place where we can agree.

Mike

[Nick the Nevermet]

I've got stuff coming
I promise.

[Morfedel]

Ugh.

Well, the first draft of my province is done. I'm not 100% pleased with it, though, so be gentle! :)

Also note that I understand you may not like the names of people and places; I dont know the cultures you guys refer to well enough to do anything "legitimate" with them, so I did my best.

Forgive the sloppiness of this, its a first draft:

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Pendus Fain - The Land of Sea and Stone

The Southeastern holding of Taveruun is one of great diversity, both of its land and its people. Whether walking among the edges of the river-hewn, unforgiving canyons of Athul-Dul, weaving through the mazelike and treacherous marsh coasts along the Sapphire Bay, or patrolling the northerneastern borders watching the rolling plains leading into Otamarluk, the land's diversity leaves much for the traveller to see.

Hidden within its culture, however, is a landscape far more treacherous than any that can be found on the back of a horse or the sole's of one's feet.



Geography:

Pendus Fain shares most of its border either with Svarastra or its other Taveru holdings, with only a slim strip of land bordering Otamarluk.

Svarastra is divided from Otamarluk by a vast plateau of mountains and valleys breaking the entire middle and eastern segments with a barrier of titanic rock.

Following this line west towards Pendus Fain, the mountains begin to dwindle and fall, losing their majesty as they approach the setting sun. Valleys and passes cut through much of the western reaches, falling into foothills by the time it reaches Taveruun, where its eastern river digs through the rock and stone in its course to the sea. Here, the canyons of Athul-Dul are riddled with passes, earth bridges, caverns, and pockets dug out of the rock by the rushing waters. Winds raised with the sun howl through the mazes within, creating a haunting chorus of whistles and howls to great the morning. The canyons dwindle as the river continues to the sea, ending in marshes and bogs.

As the land continues west, it slopes downward, fading from rocky and treacherous terrain to a more even and level field.


Internal Politics:

Politics of Church and State play a large role in most societies on Weryth, and nowhere is this more true than in Pendus Fain. Here, the High Lord plays a dangerous game of cat and mouse with the ArchBishop of the Imperial Church, and his neighbors, concerning power and glory.

The Highlord of Pendus Fain is a man known as Corathus, a recent inductee into the position. Until 5 years ago, another man ruled, and his family. A tragedy, a weakening of the blood, took the Highlord's wife and second child during labor 3 years before, one year before his firstborn son died in battle, and the year of Corathus' induction the previous Highlord was slain in a hunting accident.

Thus, that royal line was extinguished. Corathus, one of the previous Highlord's generals, and a high ranking noble, assumed command. Without wife or issue, he has leaped into his position with vigor.

In the last five years, Corathus has granted the church unprecedented power even in Taveruun. With the aid of the Highlord, an inquisition is rooting out enemies of the church, and the state.

Despite this, there are rumors of a serpent in the midst of the court. The new Highlord leaves often, with only his most trusted advisors at the dawn preceding every full moon. There are rumors that abound that he goes in meeting of a creature known as MorrowWight. It is said the thing is a Sorcerer, or fairy, or devil. Yet, investigations from the church have uprooted nothing, and they dare not confront their staunchist ally directly. But whispers of a cadaverous, white-skinned and white-haired creature with pupiless eyes and dirty claws race the courts, a thing that acts as a supernatural advisor to this new High Lord.

Nevertheless, the Archbishop Maridus is patient, and his own spies work hard at sifting truth from falsehood. In the meantime, Maridus enthusastically pursues his own agendas, and that of the church. Thus far, all goes well.

The church is also uphappy with one of the High Lord's Military advisor. A Riddle Seeker, Dungar often leaves Taveruun to travel the world, learn new techniques, and bring them back to teach the military... and to improve his own skills. Dungar is quiet, but confident, and holds the Mailed Fist of the Imperial Church in poor regard, and keeps his thoughts no secret.


Society:

Communities in Pendus Fain are very tight-lipped and distrustful of strangers. Inquisitors and military march the land, looking to uproot thayists, nature-worshippers, and others that seem to flourish within the borders. Nevertheless, there are some who follow the "Old Ways," although only in secret, and never do they share their faith with others.

The fear has increased of late. Across much of the land, a rash of murders have begun. Investigators from the church have said it appears to be the work of cultists, as the murders appear in a ritualistic fashion; a secret of the church, however, is that the rituals are of an unknown origins. Whether they are dealing with a new cult, or a madman, they are uncertain - but the fear allows them to draw the reigns ever tighter.

This strengthening and centralization of power has benefitted Carathus as well. Questions were raised on the mysterious rash of deaths that took the Royal family that once ruled Pendus Fain, but since the union of church and state, they have since stopped their questioning of their new High Lord.

Recently, a few of the villages at the shores of the Sapphire Bay have been scooped up and removed by the military, to where no one seems to know....


External Politics:

Otamarluk has been a bit less of a direct threat to Pendus Fain than to the other provinces, as they generally head more directly less; some times, however, they steal their way more south, and combat is not unknown.

There is great concern over Otamarluk, and Corathus has instigated the construction of border fortresses to match his northern neighbor, in the hopes of stopping the incursions. He has not had as much to fear, but he knows how an avalanche can begin with just one stone.

Borders with Svarastra are far better, however. Trade is lucrative, as the almost too wealthy nobles living there pay premium prices and make favorable trade with the Taveruun merchants - simply, Svarastra can afford it.

The Canyons forming the borders between Svastra and Pendus Fain have a large number of places to cross, but most are much like following a maze; instead, the trade between the two has caused several manmade bridges, and a few rare land bridges, to be used as places of crossing. Merchants cross to the sound of the roaring river deep below them, to continue on their way.

With looming war before him, the High Lord contemplating raids on Svarastra... they are fat with wealth, was the original reasoning. But, trade being good, he came up with a better plan.

Looking at the Sapphire bay, Numeria alone holds a substantial port, and little navy. Svarastra is even worse, having no real navy to speak of to defend itself against pirates, and no other country has a naval presence.

Deep in the marsh, a number of villages were taken by the military, emptied. The people were moved to a quiet and secret place, hidden by marsh on all sides, and Pendus Fain's first naval shipyard is constructed at the command of the commander there, working the villagers who had been taken.

It is a dangerous thing, but once the port is complete, Privateer vessels shall be built, followed by true naval vessels. The Sapphire Bay shall belong to Taveruun, if the High Lord has his way. Final decisions have not been made; the shipyard itself still needs to be complete.


Economy:

Pendus Fain's major production is in: stone, having a number of functioning quarries; mushrooms; goat and sheep; wool and cotton. They trade most of this to Svarastra, in exchange for spices, tea, metals and finished weapons and armors. Craftsmen of Taveruun study Svarastran tastes, and make finished products to trade to Svarastra nobles at a very high price, in exchange for raw and unfinished goods.


Religion:

While the Imperial Church was the most represented religion, it is only in recent years that things have become so tightly controlled. thayrists, nature worshippers, and others dwelt in this land, and with a quiet peace, until the current High Lord assumed command. Since then, the church has gained in power, and seeks out heretics with a mailed fist. Nevertheless, some small temples hidden in deep and underpopulated reaches of Pendus Fain, most particularly in the bogs and marshes to the southeast, persist and gather pockets of followers, while villagers, suspicious of outsiders, draw in and protect their neighbors with a great fervor, becoming tight-lipped or ignorant when Inquisitors come visiting.

This has produced a kind of problem: the church has its devout followers, but the Archbishop, an overly aggressive man given much freedom by the High Lord, seeks to alienate some of the less devout followers; while they would not raise up in protest, the church holding the power, things grow tense. Combined with the mas murders and the disappearing villages, and raids from Otamarluk, one can cut the tension of this province like a knife.



Places of Note:

In one wall of the Canyon is cut an ornate and beautiful cathedral to the Imperial Church, straight out of the living stone. Around it, the canyon walls were worked to create an almost symphonic melody when the winds blow just right.

Somewhere along one of the major roads is a long-abandoned shrine to Xanar and the Three. It is along a major thoroughfare, but anyone going inside feels decidedly uneasy, and without fail anyone sleeping there overnight are plagued with nightmares.

Towards the western border, in a small wooded area, stands a monastary that was recently struck down with a terrible plague. The remaining monks are no no longer able to handle all the work of caring for the place.

Along the mountain ranges that protrude into the Taveruun edge, that run along the Svarastran-Otamarluk border, large armies of Gols march. At times, some tribes come down the foothills, cross the canyon, and raid Taveruun.

There are also rumored to be fairy caverns deep in the canyon walls, though no one has ever proven they exist.

[Morfedel]

*listens to the chirping of crickets in the night....*

That bad, eh? :/

Heh

[Gary_Bingham]

That bad, eh? :/

Heh

Not at all Morfedel actually I think it's great. There are a few rough edges that I want to help you round off, but you will have to give me a few days.

I believe the contributors to this thread are absent atm. Mike is at Origins and Brian is in Bolivia. I am at QCon in Belfast this weekend and have been preparing for it over the last few days.

Back soon :)